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The 1st review of "Into Darkness" is in!


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#41 robster

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 03:00 AM

I loved the movie. Didn't think I would,but knowing all the spoilers weeks before kinda helped. I was REALLY angry when I read them though,made me hate anything Trek,but by the time I saw the movie last week all that disappointment and anger had died down quite a bit and I managed to enjoy the movie. Expectations were taken down considerably as well.

 

Still got a few more movies this summer I look forward to. Elysium being one,Superman,Pacific Rim and a couple of others. I'll watch anything ONCE,lol! If I like it,I'll watch it again. Seeing Trek again while in the US next week,twice! But I know a lot of Trek fans won't like this movie,that's life.

 

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#42 Gothneo

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:11 AM

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler



#43 Guest_1701_*

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:26 AM

I'm pretty burned out. I couldn't sleep after seeing it, knowing this is the future of Star Trek... I feel like I'm losing a family member.

 

Then, on four hours of sleep, I'm woken by a phonecall (voicemail) telling me that my mother "has had a -=muffled by wind=- in the car park of the garden centre here". Frantic scramble to find out what that missing word is, followed by frantic scramble to get a neighbour to give me a lift to the garden centre to get her. She's fine. She tripped and fell, and is bruised and grazed, but she's ok.

 

Why'd I tell you that? To explain the lack of formatting that follows. But first, a coherent answer to your question:

 

THERE BE SPOILERS HERE

 

Spoiler

 

And in case I missed anything, here's my stream of consciousness from Reddit this afternoon...

 

MOAR SPOYLARS (and unfiltered rage)

 

Spoiler


PEOPLE WHO LIKED THIS MOVIE:

I see where you're coming from, really. There was a lot to like - I really swooned over the visuals
Spoiler
, and there was a lot of cool intrigue going on.

But DO NOT debate me on this. I'm not in a place where I can handle that yet, so prepare to be ignored.

There was a lot more lazy, insensitive dream-trampling going on here than there were positives. Impact-wise, anyway.

 

Give me a few days to possibly be less angry about this.

 

I'm not one to invoke clichès like this, but half way through this movie, something broke inside of me. I realised that Star Trek, the Star Trek that I love, is dead and gone. And thanks to this highly likeable and well-made atrocity, it's never coming back.

 

Spoiler

 

Hey Destructor, first of all hope your mother is doing well as that is far more important than Star Trek. Secondly, whilst I did enjoy the movie (seeing it again in a moment actually) I actually do agree with you but I think where we diverge in opinions is that I'm totally ok with Star Trek becoming something different from how I know and love Star Trek.

 

Spoiler

 

I think everyone else has said it but D, I think for your own sake, you need to step back and look at Trek for what it is, entertainment. Feel better soon.



#44 Gothneo

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:27 AM

 

Spoiler



#45 Whirlygig

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:39 AM

Spoiler



#46 Guest_1701_*

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:30 AM

Spoiler



#47 Gothneo

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:51 AM

1701, I think you tend to use the "If your open to change, you'll like" it line as a type of Straw-man argument. Which is to say, you discount any actual honest criticism or critique that someone may have by redirecting the discussion to change and to that person not being open to change.

 

Without getting into any spoilers, Destructor actually (in between ranting) seems to have  some very good and rational critiques of why he didn't care for the movie.

 

I would say change can be good. Different is good. Witty and sharp dialog and script can be interesting and good.

 

Being derivative, or lazy story telling. Not so good.

 

In spite of all my fears, I was actually staying optimistic about the movie, but now that I've read more about it, I can tell its just not my bag.

 

For example, as I wrote on a different thread,  IM2 and IM3 are pretty much the same movie, thus I'm more critical of IM3 because its not different. Its derivative. Is it a fun pop corn muncher? Sure. Just as I'm sure Into Darkness is a fun pop-corn munching space cowboy type movie. Personally, from the description of spoilers, it sounds like I've seen this movie already, and seen it recently. Which means other than dressing it up in the trappings of Star Trek it offers nothing new for me.



#48 Guest_1701_*

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:38 PM

It wasn't lazy or derivative and whilst fans may be dissapointed with the end result, Its most certainly not a fault of the film but the fault of the fan being closed off to something new. We all knew that this film was not been made for fans, even though there are so many fan-loving moments in it, far more than there were in 2009 and I'm sorry but the reason I do use the line "if your open to change" is because internet fans mainly are notorious for not being open to change...

 

Does Destructor have some good points? Well seeing as you've not seen the movie I'd wait and go see it before you make your mind up. Having seen it twice now I think Destructor's opinion is routed in an obession with Star Trek's past and only liking certain aspects and that any deviation from that is considdered sacrilage rather than being open to changes to the ridiculous canon or Trek's future. Whilst any fan will have to walk into the cinema open minded, it's not as if the characters are being ignored or disrespected, each actor does an incredible job at portraying these iconic characters with such love, affection and care that you really do sense the love they each have for not just their characters but for the source material, these aren't actors who've just turned up to collect a pay cheque, these guys have really fallen in love with their respective characters. Pine, Quinto, Pegg and Urban especially really do come across as if they've really upped their game from 2009 and really understand the love fans have for these characters. I've got to say that it's actually a very thrilling story that I'd not actually fully appreciated the first time seeing it (due to being excited and the movie being very fast paced). Of course like the best Star Trek's, it's not perfect but the inperfections are outweighed as far as I'm concerned by the love each actor has for the characters and the sheer scale, the pace, the excitement of this story. Whilst it may take the best of fans to accept this movie, it's the dedication and the care that the cast have taken over portraying these iconic characters without just slipping into parody, these are brilliant actors and the film remains at it's heart a character driven piece that has Star Trek in it's soul and spirit.

 

If you love your Star Trek cerebral and conference table based then no this won't be a film you'll particularly like. Some of the dialogue was slightly silly and the science of it was well definitely science-fiction but what do fans expect from a franchise that has always been sligtly goofy and slightly silly and that has on more than a dozen occasion's revealed dubious science to advance the plot.

 

Into Darkness is a rip-roaring adventure and whilst exploring strange new worlds sits firmly on the back burner, it explores the relationships between Kirk and Spock and firmly gives Kirk the credibility to sit in the captain's chair. If anything this movie sets up what could be an almighty third installment

Spoiler
  

 

Spoiler

 

If I had to describe Into Darkness it would be to say that the film is a very logical progression from the 2009 movie. It answers a lot of questions fans had about that film and does it in a timely and logical manner without retreadding old ground. The twists and turns the plots take are wild and will entertain anyone wanting to watch a great summer blockbuster movie and I maintain that had Star Trek been given the budget for this kind of movie in the past, its this kind of movie we'd have been given. It's quite clearly a Star Trek movie and continues to respect what came before it,staying true to the spirit of the original series and it's characters whilst charting its own path from the 2009 movie... logically. The tagline used in 2009 was "This isn't your father's Trek" and whilst thats true for this movie too as it also is not undermined by any of Star Trek's past but free to chart it's own logical path, Into Darkness does whole-heartedly respect long-time fans as long as long-time fans respect it. I feel Abrams and co understand more so this time round where Star Trek has come from and what Star Trek means to not just long time fans but to people who'd been turned away from the club during the 90's and 00's when Star Trek seemed like a member's only club. 

 

Whilst anyone is perfectly capable of expressing their own opinions, I do wonder if many Trekkers/ies are missing the bigger picture and the point of Star Trek because their so caught up in the specifics that really they aren't able to enjoy but a fraction of what Star Trek actually is rather than enjoying it as it was always meant to be enjoyed, even in the 60's as... ENTERTAINMENT!



#49 Gothneo

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 01:58 PM

Hey, thanks for taking the time to give me some spoilers on the positive side!

 

Anyhow, I was just trying to suggest that you should try and be open to the idea that more fans are actually open to change, since as many have pointed out, every new series that has been put forth has included change in some manner or another!

 

While I still think this movie isn't going to be my bag (and I will wait to see it before I judge it), you've actually gotten me excited for the NEXT movie   ;)



#50 Destructor!!!

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:04 PM

Like I said, I was still very angry, and had had A very stressful day yesterday, on account of my mother's fall.
I'm a little calmer now, and there are a lot of parts of the film I liked. (it's just that the parts I didn't like were inexcusable)

I will watch it again, but I'm not paying anymore money to JJ. Aside from merchandising of course ;)

EDIT:
Oops, didn't see that there was a page two now!

I feel more capable of sober discussion - and I apologise for my outburst.

1701, your first reply surprised me - I agreed with it completely!

Spoiler


Another source of distress is the internal consistency, or rather, lack thereof. Be it scientific, cartographic, or chronologic... If it ends in -ic, then it probably doesn't make much sense in the JJverse, even by it's own rules.

#51 Guest_1701_*

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:19 PM

Destructor, I admire your passion towards Star Trek but don't you think that rather than seeing this movie or future Treks you may or may not like as inexcusable, you may just see them as different

 

I can see that mainly the science behind Into Darkness really bothered you but I can't help but feel that your anger is unnecissary as Star Trek science has always been at best based in fantasy and there to advance the story. I can think of episodes of each of the Trek TV series which had far more ridiculous scientific plausability issues than Into Darkness.

 

This is really a general question but has fandom become so ridged that what has been seen as acceptable from Star Trek's past throughout each of the TV series and films isn't seen as acceptable in JJ Abrams Star Trek simply because the current films are not part of the established prime canon? Have fans become so for the lack of a better word, petty, that they can't accept that Star Trek's purpous is to entertain people and that it's influence is secondary to its primary reason of existance to entertain people?

 

I continue to be perplexed by a fraction of the online community of Star Trek fans angry at the current Star Trek movies.



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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:31 PM

One more thing, since when did Star Trek become about the science and not the people?



#53 Qcjoe

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:20 PM

One more thing, since when did Star Trek become about the science and not the people?

You hit it on the head.  My buddy in England saw it and loved it.  If any one is familiar with Marvel comics Ultimate line thats what this is like.  It dosent take away from what came before, but offers up something new.  Its really what Marvel has done with there properties and movies.



#54 Gothneo

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:36 PM

Well, I've always considered Star Trek in the Sci-Fi genre. And actually, much of its been rooted in basic science. As it progressed from TOS through ENT, they actually attempted to get better at it. I wouldn't say its about one or the other, rather that its about both. There is another genre called science-fantasy.

 

Distinguishing between science fiction and fantasy, Rod Serling claimed that the former was "the improbable made possible" while the latter was "the impossible made probable". As a combination of the two, science fantasy gives a scientific veneer of realism to things that simply could not happen in the real world under any circumstances - where science fiction does not permit the existence of fantasy or supernatural elements; science fantasy explicitly relies upon them.

 

Star Wars is typically considered quintessential Sci-Fantasy. I would say JJ has taken trek more down the road of Sci-Fantasy. To your point. It's not necessarily a bad thing. But it is a marked divergence from what Star Trek was.

 

I'm not sure the comparison to comics is the right one to make. Especially the Ultimate Books. They were launched to try and get away from continuity, but they have since been mired in their own continuity issues, and the book sales and titles have really declined from the original launch. But more importantly, Marvel never quit publishing in the 616 universe, so if the Ultimate Universe wasn't your bag, you could just continue reading the 616 verse.



#55 Destructor!!!

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:23 PM

Not sure if you guys saw, but I was editting more into my last post when 1701 posted. I have more to say, but text entry on smartphones is still too clunky to get it across properly. I'll sit down at the keyboard at some point, and clarify my point of view.

#56 Alex

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:07 AM

I'm going to spoiler tag the majority of this post for what should be obvious reason. Read the spoiled portions at your own risks.

 

Spoiler



#57 Gothneo

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:26 AM

While I'm firmly in the same camp of Alex, Destructor and Whirlygig, with regards to expectations, after reading many reviews, and lots of spoilers, I actually think the movie sounds like a very fun sci-fantasy adventure flick. I have no doubt the actors do a sensational job. As I thought they did in the original. And it sounds like this movie looks spectacular, and the effects are sensational! 



#58 Qcjoe

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:38 AM

With something that is so loved like Star Trek how can anyone look at spoilers?  I want to go into it with out knowing anything.  Even some of the trailers towards the end have had to much.  Im mad that they shown Harrisons ship.  That would have been a nice "Oh Shit"  moment.  Just my point of view.  



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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:37 AM

Well, I've always considered Star Trek in the Sci-Fi genre. And actually, much of its been rooted in basic science. As it progressed from TOS through ENT, they actually attempted to get better at it. I wouldn't say its about one or the other, rather that its about both. There is another genre called science-fantasy.

 

 

Star Wars is typically considered quintessential Sci-Fantasy. I would say JJ has taken trek more down the road of Sci-Fantasy. To your point. It's not necessarily a bad thing. But it is a marked divergence from what Star Trek was.

 

I'm not sure the comparison to comics is the right one to make. Especially the Ultimate Books. They were launched to try and get away from continuity, but they have since been mired in their own continuity issues, and the book sales and titles have really declined from the original launch. But more importantly, Marvel never quit publishing in the 616 universe, so if the Ultimate Universe wasn't your bag, you could just continue reading the 616 verse.

 

I think Abrams has returned Star Trek to the style and Sci-Fi of the Original Series!

 

Star Trek is in the Sci-Fi genre but in TOS it wasn't about the science or the tech being plausible, it was and has remained even through JJ Abrams films, about the characters,  every day men and women, working together to tackle the alien of the week in the 23rd century.

 

You may not like certain characters but thats your opinion but when fans say that this film insults Trek or whatever, I just don't buy that argument and feel it's an argument made from fans who see science and tech at the forefront of Star Trek which is insulting in itself as that wasn't the Star Trek series Gene Roddenberry created, Trek tech was a means to an end, nothing more. 

 

The fact that Star Trek tech has in part become reality is a happy coincidence, the real spirit of Star Trek has always been the characters and that trend continues in the 2009 Star Trek as well as Into Darkness whole heartedly.



#60 Whirlygig

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:56 PM

At the end of the day JJ Abrams has ... created a rich and vibrant and believable universe very much in the spirit of TOS.

 

Does this mean you've been convinced that there *is* a definable spirit of Star Trek, or just that you are willing to allow one to TOS for the duration of a complimentary remark if it helps form that remark?  You can understand my confusion since your previous statements have largely hinged around convincing us that there is no such thing as a spirit of Star Trek.

 

 

If you love your Star Trek cerebral and conference table based then no this won't be a film you'll particularly like.

 

Whilst anyone is perfectly capable of expressing their own opinions, I do wonder if many Trekkers/ies are missing the bigger picture and the point of Star Trek because their so caught up in the specifics that really they aren't able to enjoy but a fraction of what Star Trek actually is rather than enjoying it as it was always meant to be enjoyed, even in the 60's as... ENTERTAINMENT!

 

What if I someone loves Star Trek to be cerebral and not conference table "based"?  And might I suggest that such flippant remarks as suggesting the two go necessarily hand-in-hand (and are somehow inherently a negative combination as implied by tone) are not likely to be taken lightly (or seriously) by Trek fans, and making them risks painting yourself as hyperbolic.

 

And lastly, to repeat what others have already stated, we can simultaneously be entertained by something while also holding the opinion that it is not Star Trek.  Continuing to assert the two are mutually exclusive is not going to make it true.  Also your last sentence above is somewhat incoherent but it sounds like you are again claiming we're quibbling over some small "but a fraction" of Star Trek when I think those you are conversing with (including me) have already made it quite clear we consider the missing portion to be significant.  You'll need to address this if you want to make any progress with those you are speaking to -- repeating your original hypothesis ad infinitum will not get us anywhere unless your goal is to simply drown us out.






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