1901 replies to this topic

[Whirlygig]

Lol...oh, Nimoy.  Either he was delusional, didn't actually pay attention, or just being professional.  If Quinto had "taken Spock to somewhere fantastic" I am pretty sure I would have recognized it as fantastic.  It wasn't fantastic.

 

Let's look at Man of Steel for a minute.  The die-hard Superman fans were hugely up in arms over the portrayal of Superman, particularly about the whole unchecked cityscape destruction thing.  I, as a person with only casual Superman interest, wasn't really bothered by this and didn't hate the film.

 

Is one of us (them or me) wrong?  I don't think so.  But I do think they have a bit more skin in the game than me, and therefore MORE of a right to say which direction they would rather see Superman steered in.  I have no problem with yielding them that right.  And yes, it's an oversimplification to say "them".  In reality this is a logical fallacy of "no true Scotsman" flavor -- I said "die-hard Superman fans", but how do you determine who they are?  Were they *all* feeling the same way?  Heck no.  But anyway, my point is, I am happy to let them debate over it and choose the direction somehow while I just sit here waiting for the next Superman film.

 

So now coming back to Star Trek.  First of all, we here know very well the "no true Trekkie" problem.  Because we all have different ideas of what Trek should be like, even when we forget everything after VOY ever happened we don't all agree.  For me (and many others), it's a bit of a "religion".  Taken as a whole, Trek, the greatest secular humanist gospel ever told...please don't disturb that part of it.  Let it remain a beacon of hope for how a post-superstitious/religious human society might work and be possible.  In essence that's the main thing I care about, really.  Others have different things they care about.  But one thing is sure, we all really care.  So it should be up to us to debate it...meanwhile the outsiders probably don't care that much as long as it's entertaining.

 

I don't really know what my point is and I just kind of jumped in after only skimming a few comments above but hey, there it is. 

[Gothneo]

Taken as a whole, Trek, the greatest secular humanist gospel ever told...please don't disturb that part of it. 

 

So, that, at least to me, summarizes GRs vision, and honestly I think he picked a Sci-Fi show because he could project that with ease.. and because we were in the middle of a space race and it was hip, cool, and exciting.

 

So... does DISCO embrace secular humanism? In part? in Full? to quote the definition does it "embraces human reason, ethics, social justice, and philosophical naturalism while specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, pseudoscience, and superstition as the bases of morality and decision making?"

 

I think its a complex question because every episode of any series probably doesn't... but as a whole, pretty much every previous incarnation of Trek has.. ok.. maybe not Into Darkness.

[Whirlygig]

I would have to say that it hasn't really done anything to particularly drive those values home, yet.

 

It's driving some of its own concepts home ... it's working on this whole Burnham-regret-duty-honor angle for instance.  But nothing about that requires secular humanism.

 

The fabric of Trek has a few threads built into it that help keep it on the right path no matter where one particular episode or creative talent may steer it for awhile.  If a crew member raises the term "Prime Directive" for example, well, there you go...why do we have that?  Because enlightenment tells us we shouldn't just crap all over another culture.  But there hasn't been an episode yet which actually explores the philosophy behind that.  Also just being sci-fi by nature is one of these threads -- what's the explanation for weird stuff?  Science, not magic.  We can control our destiny through science, not just yield to some external unknown force.

 

So far Discovery has primarily used these integral Trek concepts as background to its own story.  Say, for instance, how we do indeed see them trying to exercise the Prime Directive in the opening moments of the very first episode -- but there's no sufficient lesson in there for the n00bs as to why, and n00bs might not even pick up on it at all in those moments to be honest. 

 

But within its own story, Discovery so far is actually about a lot of things that are unenlightened.  The captain isn't exactly a shining example of ethics, for example.

 

I'd like to see this story go somewhere of consequence that helps show why the principles of the Federation and Starfleet and the human race in the future *are* what they are.  You got that on a fairly regular basis from the previous incarnations.  Working back, Archer, Janeway, Sisko, Picard, Kirk -- they all speechified about this from time to time.  Still waiting for this from Discovery.

[Gothneo]

For all the vaunted talk of the prime directive, even in TOS, it often gets violated or at least severely challenged. something like 10+ times in TOS and about that in TNG too. 

 

I think they aspire to perfection but its a constant struggle... I'm hoping that this is the lesson we will see with Lorca. 

[Whirlygig]

The fact they were violating it was often why it was being discussed/explored, which highlighted another enlightened concept...don't be too dogmatic.

[1701D]

Its certainly interesting to talk about. I dont think theres really an answer.

I think Discovery is good TV, its a little messy in terms of its Star Trek credibility but its not so bad that it completely ignores Star Trek. On the contrary.

Id like to see it become a more aspirational show as we go into the second season and Id like there to be a little more colour and pop to it.

I really liked the way Stella and Barron whats his face were dressed in the last episode, they could of beamed in from the tos show.

Its a great show, it needs a bit of polishing.

[Gothneo]

I don't think I'm being dogmatic by suggesting that there is a constant struggle to maintain such principles. Many of them are a bit subjective... and most aren't what would be considered genetic... so when they talk about being "evolved", I think they are talking about a moral or philosophical evolution... and clearly... even in TOS, people like Mudd clearly don't buy-in to the Federations definition... 

 

much of DS9 was taking the issues with religious dogma and philosophical naturalism head-on... and even Sisko struggled with and backslid at times. 

 

People like Mudd and Lorca are interesting because its not that they don't specifically reject religious dogma, supernaturalism, pseudoscience, and superstition as the bases of morality and decision making... but rather they have a different set of moral values by which their ethics are guided. I don't believe Humanism, in general, dictates the morality, some specific strains do... such as altruism... and characters like Mudd certainly don't agree with that!

 

So clearly not all humans in Trek agree... and good thing, otherwise we wouldn't have interesting stories... at some level, while Lorcas personal moral values may be questionable, when looked at in the context of the entire federation, Lorca seems to have the welfare and survival of the Federation as his prime concern. On the smaller scale he seems overtaken by his ego which is a kind of antithesis. The question is will he check that ego upon securing the safety of the federation? 

[Whirlygig]

I wasn't calling you dogmatic or telling you not to be too much so, Goth. That clause was the answer to the previous one in my sentence - "don't be too dogmatic" is another enlightened concept that showing Prime Directive violations highlighted.

[Gothneo]

Its all good. I wasn't taking it personal. but I think its religious dogma in particular... dogma ... loosly as a set of principles they uphold is ok... but I think thats your point, don't hold on to tightly because then it becomes authoritarian?

[Whirlygig]

Yep.  E.G., Prime Directive: We have rules.  Violating Prime Directive: Humanism trumps rules.  (Rules are never perfect.)

[Gothneo]

that too can be a slippery slope though! especially when your trying to run an organization!

 

But again, I think thats what helps make it interesting.

[Whirlygig]

Yes.  That is what makes it interesting.  That's why the episodes are morality plays, and that's why they "speechify" sometimes to an extreme many find to be too much.  There's a debate, an attempt to understand what is right, in complicated scenarios that pit our ideals against one another.  If all they did was action and sci-fi tropes they might as well be any other sci-fi franchise.  So in that regard, I'm still waiting for Discovery to display that it belongs under the Trek umbrella and may not as well be something else.

[Gothneo]

We've had some glimmers, but yes, I agree, thus far what we have is a massive setup of the moral issues... multiple issues actually... and some my be vindicated and some not so much, but I agree, we need the "Act 3" where the moral issues are tackled head on and we get a resolution in the humanist manner. 

[Alteran195]

We've had some glimmers, but yes, I agree, thus far what we have is a massive setup of the moral issues... multiple issues actually... and some my be vindicated and some not so much, but I agree, we need the "Act 3" where the moral issues are tackled head on and we get a resolution in the humanist manner. 

With this story being heavily serialized, I imagine we'll get something like that at some point. 

[Gothneo]

yes... I think we are solidly into act 2... most of the plot has been set in motion, and now we need to see some setback, some other conflicts, to see the resolution and triumph of act 3.

[Alteran195]

Apparently Twilight Zone is also getting an All Access exclusive reboot. 

 

It must be doing well enough since CBS is still fully committed to it as a platform. 

[Gothneo]

really??? that would be fantastic! wow, Trek and twlight zone on the same platform... taht would mean I'm only paying $4 a month per show!

[VulcanFanatic]

I will resubscribe to CBS All access and watch a rebooted Twilight Zone when they put a decent new Star Trek series on there. So I guess that means I won't be seeing Twilight Zone....

[Alteran195]

I will resubscribe to CBS All access and watch a rebooted Twilight Zone when they put a decent new Star Trek series on there. So I guess that means I won't be seeing Twilight Zone....

Why even bother since you'll probably end up hating it too since it'll be a modern show?

[Gothneo]

People like VF are clearly not the demo they are after anyway.