Jump to content


Photo

Star Trek: Discovery. Series talk and discussion


  • Please log in to reply
975 replies to this topic

#921 MisterPL

MisterPL

    New Forceaholic

  • Members
  • 882 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 December 2020 - 03:18 PM

I'm not defending Star Trek so much as pointing out the flaws in your argument, that's all. The transporter is stupid and contrived. Warp drive is stupid and contrived. But it's science-fiction so we allow a certain suspension of disbelief. 

 

You're really choosing to suddenly dismiss the Universal Translator™, something that's been a staple of the franchise for decades? Technology is supposed to make things easier for us, not more difficult.

 

I had no interest in computers growing up because I'm generally right-brained. As much as I wanted to be able to write code to make pretty pictures, I didn't have it in me. And along came Apple to provide an interface that even I could handle. And I'm guessing Ben Franklin could, too. Given how 32nd century technology was explained, I expect the crew of Discovery managed to tackle the learning curve just fine. (Except for poor Linus beaming here and there unexpectedly.) 

 

You have a problem with dilithium still being a source of energy 800 years later? Are you as upset with fire?

 

Star Trek isn't perfect by any stretch but it certainly seems like there's an element of the fandom that actively seeks to find reasons to hate the franchise. Not just nitpick but hate. As a long-time Trekkie, I enjoy nitpicking as much as the next fan but not to tear the show down. It's much more creatively challenging to come up with a viable explanation. Then again, as I said, I'm right-brained.  :D



#922 Whirlygig

Whirlygig

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,426 posts

Posted 17 December 2020 - 11:19 AM

Only Sith deal in absolutes....did I ever at any point sound like I was trying to hate?

 

I don't think the Universal Translator is well known for its ability to translate colloquialisms.  Unless Urban Dictionary is up to date in the 32nd century.  But the burn may have made it difficult to reach the server back on Earth.

 

Haven't you seen the meme "if the founding fathers were alive today, they'd be too fascinated by a garbage disposal to do anything"?

 

Anyway...I like it when Star Trek gets self-referential as has been the tradition ever since TNG, fitting in opportunities to bring characters and their arcs forward and backward in series and time, but I find the self-references getting lazier as time wears on and this is an example of that.  Sort of a fan circle jerk "ooooh Unification Part III" built on a somewhat tenuous premise, whereas it was fully organic and unforced in TNG.

 

That's my opinion and no amount of fansplanation is gonna change it.  And trust me, I'm great at fansplanation but I can still admit when I feel dirty having to do it.



#923 MisterPL

MisterPL

    New Forceaholic

  • Members
  • 882 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 December 2020 - 07:03 AM

It's not unreasonable to expect a stupid and contrived device like the Universal Translator™ to be able to handle colloquialisms (especially in the presence of stupid and contrived Sphere Data) if it can so easily handle utterly different alien languages. I mean, Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra, dude.

If you're getting hung up on the same silliness now that's been an ongoing staple of the franchise from the start, ask yourself why. Personally, there were shows I loved when I was much younger, ones I watched religiously. After revisiting them much later I found them embarrassingly cringe-worthy. I'd outgrown them. Later still, however, I came to embrace them by keeping them in the context of not only when they were produced but my own pop culture autobiography. Nostalgia is a powerful drug and had tainted my recollection until I faced what I'd seen with more mature, experienced eyes.

 

So, yeah. I'm sure in the context of this franchise, 32nd century tech works even better than 23rd century tech. Dismiss it as "fansplanation" but it's nothing new.

 

"Unification" was forced. It followed the successful template of snatching something from the original series (like "Space Seed") and exploring it for a couple more hours. It was a way for TNG to drive ratings up by getting Nimoy back during November sweeps. "When in doubt, bring back Spock!"

 

They got Nimoy back for TMP by making it about Spock's connection to V'ger. They got Nimoy to stay by making Trek films as Spock-centric as they could. Spock was even the catalyst for the Abrams films and is now a pivotal part of Discovery. I won't be surprised if Spock becomes the longest running character in Strange New Worlds.

 

Just because something is stupid and contrived and forced (or inspired?) doesn't mean it isn't entertaining. My favorite part of "Unification III" was how it subverted the expectations of haters, who thought for sure that Michael would be the one to finally get Vulcans and Romulans to reconcile. Instead, they already had and she was the one who threatened to destroy that unity. 

And I'm not gonna lie; I was happy to see Carl back.  :)



#924 Whirlygig

Whirlygig

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,426 posts

Posted 22 December 2020 - 06:45 PM

Wasn't the whole point of Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra that it sucked at handling colloquialisms/colloquialism-adjacent language?  That's an example of my point not a rebuttal to it...but we are off in the weeds.

 

That is what you apologists do, drag us into the weeds until you have a straw man of our original argument to attack instead...

 

I am as much an apologist as the next guy.  I don't have to apologize much for Unification I and II because the story was solid.  A ratings grab, but an expertly executed one that enriched the mythos.  This one was...not...that....by any means.  Your reading of the episode seems a little different than mine...weren't they already destroying the unity themselves?

 

Also...I literally said "I am enjoying the show, but let's admit when some things are stupid and contrived, can we?"  So...I guess you maybe just admitted it?  I'll tell you all the things I thought were stupid about TNG if you want, but that's not the series we are meant to be discussing in detail here...

 

The recent two-parter was much better.  Although I'm thinking something is wrong here, since wasn't it Evil Spock who originally was set up as the instrument of change in the mirror universe?  How does it work out with it being someone else now, just a short while before the TOS incident will be occurring???



#925 MisterPL

MisterPL

    New Forceaholic

  • Members
  • 882 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 December 2020 - 08:24 PM

I have no problem nitpicking Trek (ALL of it). The only thing I might feel compelled to apologize for is the tiny part I created. Otherwise I'm just happy to point out how what might be perceived as "stupid and contrived" is nothing new to the franchise and can be explained using equally "stupid and contrived" pre-existing

plot devices. Despite what some might choose to assert, Discovery is Star Trek and doesn't exist in a vacuum... from a certain point of view.  :D 

 

The reason I brought up "Darmok" is to illustrate that, yes, the Universal Translator™ sucked at handling metaphors but that was 800 years ago and with an alien culture. It's not unreasonable to expect the technology to advance over a few centuries, nor is it unreasonable to expect it to handle language from former Federation member cultures with relative ease. It could probably even correct Yoda-speak.

 

As for "Terra Firma," we can speculate all we want about whether whatever the heck Philippa went through with Carl was real or not and what impact it should have had on TOS. As far as I'm concerned it was just a lengthy way of illustrating how much more ethically compatible Philippa had become with the Prime universe. This way they can more convincingly spin her off into the upcoming Section 31 series.

 

Maybe that series will address her experience with Carl but I'm content with it being 1) an elaborate hallucination despite her monitor's bio-readings or 2) yet another alternate reality outside the Prime universe. (I'm leaning toward the latter.)



#926 MisterPL

MisterPL

    New Forceaholic

  • Members
  • 882 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 December 2020 - 02:55 PM

Glad they found an excuse to get Doug Jones out of makeup for an episode. It's also fun to see Tilly and Osyraa try to out-sass each other.

 

At what point does the Sphere Data step in and say, "Hey, that ship that's coming at us using a Federation signature? You might wanna raise shields just to play it safe. You know, since Discovery is such a valuable asset and all."



#927 Alteran195

Alteran195

    Their ACTION FIGURES, not dolls!!

  • Members
  • 3,419 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 26 December 2020 - 08:53 PM

The ending was so terrible, no crew should be that incompetent.

#928 Whirlygig

Whirlygig

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,426 posts

Posted 28 December 2020 - 12:20 PM

At what point does the Sphere Data step in and say, "Hey, that ship that's coming at us using a Federation signature? You might wanna raise shields just to play it safe. You know, since Discovery is such a valuable asset and all."

 

Well, The Sphere Data ™ is now a lazy ever-present Deus ex Machina, and I'm sure it knows as we do that this isn't the end of Discovery and I can only assume something vital will be gained by non-interference.

 

Isn't it funny how Discovery invents a whole new alien race (Kelpiens) and then suddenly they are crucial to all storylines?  I'm gonna have to agree that the explanation of the burn is lame.  Looking forward to seeing how they get out of their present situation, though.



#929 Alteran195

Alteran195

    Their ACTION FIGURES, not dolls!!

  • Members
  • 3,419 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 28 December 2020 - 03:25 PM

 

Isn't it funny how Discovery invents a whole new alien race (Kelpiens) and then suddenly they are crucial to all storylines?   I'm gonna have to agree that the explanation of the burn is lame.

 

 

The Xindi would like a word, Discovery is not the first Trek series to do this. 

 

I don't have an issue with The Burn's explanation, wouldn't be the first time crazy powers have presented themselves in Trek. 



#930 Whirlygig

Whirlygig

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,426 posts

Posted 28 December 2020 - 05:08 PM

Ehhh....your comparison is tenuous.

They were introduced as a threat species to create a season-long arc, so yes, it's going to focus on them.

Much as the Borg were introduced as a new threat for a series-long arc.

Is not the difference between that sort of planned introduction of a new **outsider** race from beyond present known reaches, and this haphazard retconning of a new key race into the entire franchise, clear???



#931 MisterPL

MisterPL

    New Forceaholic

  • Members
  • 882 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 December 2020 - 03:24 PM

If there's one thing I've learned about writing episodic television it's that most stories aren't planned at it. A surprising amount of serendipity has played a role in many of the best arcs in television. There are also Trek species like the Ferengi who didn't turn out nearly as threatening as planned so writers have to be flexible.



#932 MisterPL

MisterPL

    New Forceaholic

  • Members
  • 882 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 December 2020 - 12:25 PM

The ending was so terrible, no crew should be that incompetent.

 

I guess Red Alert in the 32nd century does nothing to prepare a Federation ship for a hostile boarding party. So disappointing. I'd have expected The Burn to have had a Mad Max effect on such protocols. 



#933 MisterPL

MisterPL

    New Forceaholic

  • Members
  • 882 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 January 2021 - 10:24 AM

I didn't get to see Die Hard last Christmas so Episode 12 was a nice surprise.

Wasn't expecting Osyraa to make that proposal. Even with its merits it turned out to be too good to be true.

 

I'm hoping that the show stays in the 32nd century and that things don't get wrapped up in the season finale. This is a future that's a bit stunted thanks to a universal calamity, spacefarers are in need of a better means of propulsion, and Discovery has it. Ships that can blink back and forth between distant points could be fun. Stupid and contrived but fun.  B) 



#934 Whirlygig

Whirlygig

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,426 posts

Posted 04 January 2021 - 10:10 AM

If there's one thing I've learned about writing episodic television it's that most stories aren't planned at it. A surprising amount of serendipity has played a role in many of the best arcs in television. There are also Trek species like the Ferengi who didn't turn out nearly as threatening as planned so writers have to be flexible.

 

What is your point in stating this?  The Xindi season is known for being planned out as an entire season arc.  The Borg are known to have been **planned** as a replacement for the Ferengi as a main villain for the rest of the series.

 

Why you are trying to argue that "most stories aren't planned" against the backdrop of my two examples that are very well known to have in fact been planned, and when my very point rested on the fact that these examples were planned, is beyond me.  Misdirection much?

 

The spore drive was stupid and contrived when it first showed up.  That tardigrade stuff was as dumb as the space jellyfish.  They are hoping we have forgotten it was stupid and contrived from the way they made it an exciting plot device in their new contrivance.  :P 



#935 MisterPL

MisterPL

    New Forceaholic

  • Members
  • 882 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 January 2021 - 05:57 PM

You asserted that the Kelpiens were "retconned" into becoming "crucial to all storylines." I don't recall the species ever being considered canonically trivial, especially given that one of the main characters is Kelpien. 

I'm just happy they brought back the Romulans. Yeah, they were a stupid and contrived concept (militant Vulcans, oooOOOoo!) but for a species that only appeared twice in the original series they got fleshed out okay thanks to the creative process. (Or as some might consider it, "retconning.")  :P



#936 Whirlygig

Whirlygig

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,426 posts

Posted 06 January 2021 - 03:36 PM

They were considered pretty trivial before they existed.  Then Discovery said "let's invent this and use a bludgeon to make sure they seem like they've always been around"...  Any other pre-existing alien, or even yet another brand new one, could have become "Dilithium Jedi" but they thought it would be fun to fit some character/species development for Saru/Kelpiens in between the nonstop action for a change by making them the same species.  While that shows one kind of initiative on behalf of the writers...if I were them I'd feel a little dirty about it.  "My brand new race I invented is responsible for the death of the Federation and destruction of most known dilithium and basically screwing everything up in one of the most, if not THE most, significant events in the entire Star Trek timeline"...  Like, you can develop Saru without doing that -- navel gazing on your fancy little aliens you dreamt up -- no?  Kinda also makes your fancy little aliens look a little inept/irresponsible too, no?  Mmm?

 

Anywayyyyyyy....

 

Dilithium Jedi.

The Dilithium Force.

That's basically what they invented here with this new character.  I'm really expecting where this will go is somehow he'll do a Last Jedi luke and force-extend himself throughout the universe and magically restore dilithium everywhere and in the last 5 minutes of the season we'll see tons of Federation vessels magically warp into home base saying "WE'RE HOME, LONG TIME NO SEE, HOORAY!"

Because JJ's school doesn't know how to tell a good story without "magic" in it.

I liked when dilithium was fuel that a ship used, and had no in-universe magical properties, and often the engineers had to deal with its limitations or come up with sciencey-sounding alternatives around them.  The dilithium wasn't the story, or the magic, it was just there, and while it was sometimes used as a plot device to create obstacles, that tracks with reality when it comes to fuels for things.

Now it's just some more red matter mumbo jumbo.

 

That actually turns me off to this show quite a bit once I started thinking about that this morning.

Also that last episode was a mess.  Su'kal (did I get that right?) was pretty good actually but the one after was just going through motions.  Hopefully the finale will somehow pay off from that mid-arc setup.



#937 Alteran195

Alteran195

    Their ACTION FIGURES, not dolls!!

  • Members
  • 3,419 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 06 January 2021 - 08:28 PM

Dilithium wasnt fuel, it controlled the matter anti matter reaction. The Burn caused it to go inert, which means warp cores were no longer controlled and exploded.

Nothing they did with dilithium changed what it was, or made it magic.

#938 Whirlygig

Whirlygig

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,426 posts

Posted 07 January 2021 - 11:28 AM

Ah, well that misnomer of fuel vs. fuel control rod truly invalidates the whole criticism.  :P

 

They did make it magic.  They invented a Kelpien character who now has some kind of biological fusion with dilithium that enables him to send out wave bursts throughout the entire galaxy to destabilize it, only because he "grew up near some".  Or at least that's the impression I got from their frantic dialog and plotting.  Am I wrong?  That's just dumb magic.



#939 RizzoPSU

RizzoPSU

    The card is maxed out.

  • Members
  • 290 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania

Posted 07 January 2021 - 01:50 PM

Does anyone want to tackle the turbo shaft conundrum and the infinite space around the turbo lift?🙃🤪

But no, like wth?🤔

#940 MisterPL

MisterPL

    New Forceaholic

  • Members
  • 882 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 January 2021 - 03:13 PM

Because JJ's school doesn't know how to tell a good story without "magic" in it.

 

TNG had Q. TOS had Trelane. Heck, the franchise started with Gary Mitchell. Dumb magic is nothing new to Star Trek. Welcome to the franchise.  B) 
 

 

Does anyone want to tackle the turbo shaft conundrum and the infinite space around the turbo lift?

But no, like wth?

 

That took me right out of the episode. I was looking around suddenly wondering where we were. That's some TARDIS level nonsense right there.

But if they can make sense of the spore drive, I'm really looking forward to seeing how they make sense of that vast turbolift expanse, especially in a future with such advanced teleportation technology.

 

Nitpicking aside, I'm happy to see the star of the show finally sitting in the chair. No idea how long she'll be there but I'm hoping that, even when Martin-Green decides she's had enough, they just keep moving on.

 

I'm wondering how the holo recognizes Gray. The implications there are pretty significant. "Hey, there's tech that can essentially revive the dead! How fun!"  :unsure: (And it appears to be a lot easier than using a Genesis wave and a transplanted katra.)






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users