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#121 bgiles73

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 05:49 PM

QUOTE (JMW326 @ Aug 20 2010, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Following the pattern that Clone Wars has done would hardly be making a "soul less" Star Trek. Clone Wars is actually very well written with lots of emotional and political as well as ethical plots and undertones. It actually shows you that the clones are not just expendable (red shirts) but living people that feel the loss of one another too. So if Star Trek where to do something like that then they would be staying true to what some think Star Trek is really about. But it also has lots of action and intrigue which Star Trek need as well.

No, a clone of Star Wars is not what I am looking for in an an animated series. I like the design aspect of the Clone Wars. Beowulf also had an animation style that was awesome. An action-packed animated Star Trek doesn't need to loose any of its values in translating into something more action-oriented. Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing some of the old animated series stories revisited in a more modern animation style. It would even be great to see some writers from TOS all the way to ENT contributing scripts to an animated series based around JJ Abrahms Star Trek universe. It's a big galaxy and not every corner of it will be able to be explored in the movies after all. I can't even begin to go into how the Clone Wars cartoon has helped to flesh out the character of Anakin Skywalker. In the prequel movies the character was just shallow and unlikable. It was the animated series that I find helped to make his turn to the darkside more of a tragic hero epic. The same could be done for the JJ Abrahams characters. The values from the Star Trek shows we all love can be infused into the animated series if it is done right. IF IT IS DONE RIGHT the toys will sale themselves as more kids are introduced back into the Trekkie fold!

#122 knightone

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:27 PM

QUOTE (JMW326 @ Aug 20 2010, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Following the pattern that Clone Wars has done would hardly be making a "soul less" Star Trek. Clone Wars is actually very well written with lots of emotional and political as well as ethical plots and undertones. It actually shows you that the clones are not just expendable (red shirts) but living people that feel the loss of one another too. So if Star Trek where to do something like that then they would be staying true to what some think Star Trek is really about. But it also has lots of action and intrigue which Star Trek need as well.



I was speaking more of the direction of the Abrams Trek.

Clone Wars is actually, IMHO, much more like DS9 in its depth and scope than other Star Wars projects before it.

Adding dimension to Star Wars doesn't hurt it, but taking dimension away from Star Trek would.

#123 Fat Valentino

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 05:06 AM

Honestly, a years worth of an action-oriented CG cartoon would make more of an impact towards Trek's future than anything else.

#124 Guest_1701_*

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 10:09 AM

QUOTE (Whirlygig @ Aug 20 2010, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is a great summary of the reality of things. The only way to make future Trek as appealing to kids AND adults as Star Wars is now, is to change what it fundamentally is. Why do so many people want that to happen? I don't. Maybe Paramount does, for the matter of money, and that's their business... But why are we fans, who understand the difference between the franchises, out here cheering them on as they attempt to do so? As rational people we have to realize that you can't make Star Trek into Star Wars and have it still be Star Trek. Whatever such a "Star Trek" would be, it certainly wouldn't be for me -- because if I want that, I can just watch Star Wars. Which, I will add, I do love! I want more of both, not for them to turn into the same thing and then get more of whatever that would be.


I don't believe Star Trek has to change what it fundamentally is to be a success with a wider audience made up of kids and adults as Star Wars is now. Fundamentally Star Trek has always been about the characters first and foremost facing an impossible mission but somehow coming out on top using their own unique skills and working together. It's because of Star Trek that many sci-fi films today are successful because they focus on the characters, including Star Wars. Putting more action in Star Trek won't take anything away from it. As for why many fans are cheering Abrams on, I think it's because Abrams made a movie that was a good movie that didn't disrespect what had come before but didn't tip-toe around ridiculous things like canon, it was a refreshing take on the Star Trek concept.

QUOTE
As you said, Paramount made their motives clear from the minute ST: The Motion Picture was greenlighted. "What do we have that's like Star Wars?" And just as you said, fortunately, the stars aligned so that as they pursued their new goals, they left enough of Star Trek intact that most of the die-hard TOS fans could accept it. And still the result was something that didn't have much appeal with the vast majority of kids over the years, all the way through TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT. And that's ok! Who says it has to?


It's a business at the end of the day. Fans come and go, even the hard-core ones so there needs to be a way of bringing in new fans, young fans that will grow up with Star Trek and pass on their passion for it to their kids etc... Like Star Wars, Star Trek needs to continuously re-invent itself so that it appeals to a younger generation for them to make it their own. That's something it had not done since 1987 before this new movie...

QUOTE
I think people here are putting the cart before the horse when they talk about cartoon series, new "action oriented" shows, in order to drive toy sales. Why do we love Star Trek toys? Sure, some of us just love toys, any toys -- but we also love them because they are Star Trek toys. They represent characters and stories we love. Create more of those characters/stories, aimed at the same demographic, with the same heart & feel, and let the toys follow as they may (or may not). I would rather see Star Trek toys die, than watch the metamorphosis of Trek into a Star Wars clone.


I think we are all dreaming about what could be or what should be. As far as I'm concerned, I'm already sold on the Star Trek brand and I also understand how essential it is for Star Trek to constantly re-invent itself to appeal with a new audience for a new generation to enjoy. Honestly, I would rather hate what Star Trek has become than let it die so another generation cant enjoy it as much as I've enjoyed it. We have over 40 years of Star Trek to enjoy over and over again on DVD or Blu-Ray, so far I've no reason to hate it, to me It hasn't become Star Wars, for me It would be impossible for Star Trek to become Star Wars because of Star Trek's rich and vibrent history and concept's - Star Trek is based on OUR future where as Star Wars is set in a Galaxy Far Far Away.

QUOTE
In the end, I don't think we need to be egging them on to Wars-ify it even more than they already did in 2009, as fans... Is that really what you want?


The truth of the matter is this; If Star Trek 2012 can build on the success of Star Trek 2009 the people who are poo-pooing this movie will eventually be drowned out. The first movie already made more money than any of the previous 10 Trek movies, the franchise has already begun moving away from niche obscurity into the meainstream market, will it stay there? It depends on the success of the next movie but if it does continue to move on, the nay-sayers (the hard-core, purists) will become as irrelevant to the success of the Star Trek franchise as the hard-core purist fans of Star Wars have become to the success of 'Star Wars'. No one is egging Paramount/Abrams on, the truth is, many people, many long term fans, loved the new movie.

QUOTE
Star Wars is great. Sweeping themes of good and evil painted in broader strokes...good guys...bad guys...the archetypal clash between them. Themes of family, themes of religion (the force). Epic space battles, a mix of fantasy. I love it. I want more of it. I don't knock it. I also want more socio-political, allegorical commentary against a backdrop of the future of mankind and science/technology, which is unique to Star Trek when Star Trek is at its best. If Trek morphs too much into Wars, the integrity of the universe will have been undermined so much that telling such a story will no longer be possible. In a universe where there is a black and white moral code, or a sense of religious predeterminism (the force...AKA 'destiny' in ST2009), how do you ask the same questions as you do in a universe without it? You can't tell SCIENCE fiction if you abandon SCIENCE as the driving force for truth. And look how pissed off the Wars fans got when they tried to almost Trek-ify their universe with midochlorian technobabble... It's a sword that cuts both ways. There is a place in the world for Wars, and a place for Trek, but they are and should be different things as far as this fan of both is concerned.


I remember Sir Patrick Stewart commenting on Star Trek during an interview; he said that the messages are there if you look for them - if not then Star Trek is just good fun - that to me is what makes Star Trek great Star Trek, thats what made Star Trek in 2009 so great, it was relevant, it had a classic Star Trek message to it about life and death and how you make the most out of the potential you have and it was exciting and good fun. Star Trek since I've been alive has never really been as risky as the original series must have seemed back in the 60's. Unfortunately for some who really want Star Trek to remain well within the confinds of the adult demographic with themes that relate to an older generation, Star Trek has always been about sending messages to the younger generation, a message that no matter how rubbish the world is for the individual, It will get better if you believe in yourself...

As for the business side of this conversation, for as long as I can remember Star Trek has been more about making money than being risky and breaking taboos... Maybe it's because nowerdays people realise the world needs to begin to work together and don't need to be told by something regarded as entertainment where as back in the 60's the concept was very new and never before seen There's a reason we've never got a gay guy or gal on the bridge of the Enterprise as a main character...

#125 Whirlygig

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 07:57 AM

QUOTE (1701 @ Aug 22 2010, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't believe Star Trek has to change what it fundamentally is to be a success with a wider audience made up of kids and adults as Star Wars is now.

I do. That is to say, I don't believe Star Trek can ever reach an audience as wide as that of Star Wars without changing into something I wouldn't consider Star Trek. Could it reach a wider one without doing so? Probably...but never in the same league as Star Wars. I'll leave it at that, because if I provided counter-arguments for everything you just said that I disagree with we would surely end up going back and forth forever and never getting anywhere. It seems I overestimated our agreement level based on the posts I quoted.

#126 Alex

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 12:27 PM

All right, I realize this thread has gone ridiculously off-topic, but the discussion has been fun to read, so I might as well chime in on the "current" topic of the thread.

First off, I have to ask this question: since when does Star Trek have to be like Star Wars in order to be successful? This isn't a comparison of apple's to oranges, or dog's to cats, it's a comparison of dog's to alligators; Trek and Wars are two totally different animals. The "what do we have that's like Star Wars" quote is constantly taken out of context; it was made when every movie studio was getting pounded because they were all offering the same thing, except for FOX which was offering "Star Wars," and actually making a profit. The Trek film that was supposed to "be like Star Wars," never made it out of pre-production, and the film that we did get was originally written as the pilot for the TV series that had been planned (Phase II, In Thy Image,) and was to remain quote un-quote "cerebral." The script was even recycled a second time to create "Encounter at Farpoint," as were several other completed "Phase II" episodes.

Roberto Orci has stated that the direction of the next Trek film will largely be decided by fan opinion, more specifically fan request. Maybe Orci's asking fans what they want to see at conventions, or has asked Paramount to devote some people to reading forums like these to see what fans are asking for. J.J. Abrams still hasn't signed on yet, Orci said he won't sign on until the script is complete and he reads it, much as he refused to sign onto the last film until the script was complete and he read it. However, Orci also caution that the fan input needs to be completed by December, so I highly suggest those of you planning to give your input find out how to do so. smile.gif

As for the direction that Trek should take in the future, I think it has to fit the medium that it's being presented on. The 2009 film was perfectly suited to movie theaters and to the summer blockbuster crowd. The 2009 film was a bit more action-driven than what I want to see in 2012, but it did what it needed to, which was to bring casual viewers and casual fans into Trek. Not every Trek series or film needs to do this mind you, but once in awhile there needs to be something you can give "new" viewers to help them get their feet wet. The next step for Trek films should be fleshing out this alternate continuity that was just created, and I believe that should be left to the big screen.

For television, Trek needs to re-establish its presence there as well. The next TV show should be set in the 25th Century, far enough after VOY/NEM to allow for back story to be developed, but close enough that the characters from past shows can make a cameo here and there. Let's see the fallout from the destruction of Romulus. Do the Romulans reunify with the Vulcans, begin to die out, join the Federation, have a problem with others like Nero, or establish a new home world and attempt to rebuild their empire, if it's the latter, do they use something like the Genesis Device to do so? TV gives you the ability to run new episodes of a show each week, to explore characters in-depth, and to do things story-wise that you can't do in film. Let this be the more "cerebral" form of Trek.

If you really want to push the envelope, launch two new Trek shows at once, the one with the general concept noted above, and one more that can be handled in one of two different ways. The second show can be set on a Federation Colony or a space station like DS9, but unlike DS9, could and would feature a "revolving door" of cast members that would change each year. Maybe one or two people would stick around for a second or third year, but they too would only last for three years at most. This series would be designed to run indefinitely, and since it's plot-driven rather than character-driven, it could run for 20 seasons straight, except each season would feel like an individual series. This is not a substitute for Trek as we know it, but rather, a way to make Trek more accessible to people who have never seen it before. The other option for the second Trek series is to do something that's animated; I wouldn't mind a Voyager cartoon that picks up right where "Endgame" left off if Trek took this route. VOY was initially written by Roddenberry as a concept for a children's series, which was later modified to become a Trek series, so it's actually quite possible, and not too difficult to create a Voyager cartoon that would likely do well with children. Voyager tended to have quite a few action-driven story lines to begin with, so there's already a route that it could take to be more accessible to children than, say DS9. In fact, you could go a step further here and actually do a live-action follow-up to VOY aimed at children. In the '90s Nickelodeon had Space Cases, which really was a sort of "Voyager for children" concept, with Bill Mumy and Peter "New Frontier" David at the helm. A Trek series aimed at children would likely wind up on Nickelodeon as well, given CBS' good relations with Viacom. Right now Nickelodeon has iCarly as a live-action show, and they're adding the new Saban-produced Power Rangers series sometime between January and February of 2011. A live-action Trek series for children could be "hammocked" (industry jargon for placing a "weak/new" show between two "old/strong" shows,) between the two aforementioned shows.

While the second Trek show would be nice, the next movie and a return to prime-time television should be top priority. (With CBS owning the series, I can no longer use the pun of "Paramount.") People need to stop measuring Trek's success in relation to the success of Star Wars. They're two totally different things, and trying to make them act as if they were the same will only ruin both of them. (And for the record, I'm a fan of both; I just happen to be a bigger Trek fan...even if I have Star Wars sheets...with a Trek poster hanging above them. wink.gif)

#127 Guest_1701_*

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 01:25 PM

Some good points there Alex but I'm not sure where you saw Orci state their looking for inspiration from fans, the only thing I've heard is that they are listening to the fans of the FIRST movie, the people who care about these characters and looking at other successful sequels like Empire Strikes Back and The Dark Knight, (I'm sure there looking at other things as well but these are the examples mentoned). Click here for Info
A comprehensive plan like that sounds like fun so here's mine:

Star Trek (2012) should continue to develop the alternate universe and the characters that are within it - rumour has it that it's going to get back to the idea of Wagon Train (click here for info) Under no circumstances should this universe begin to involve in a direct way the prime universe - it should go it alone as should the characters introduced in the 2009 movie... If they are to revisit the prime universe then read on...

Once the new movie has hit the screens, depending on it's success, CBS/Paramount should look into developing an animated series to be shown on Nickelodeon, pitched as an action-adventure series based in the new alternate universe but on a new set of characters (that could be used in future feature films or have already appeared in the first two). This series COULD be set in both the alternate timeline as well as the prime timeline utalising the newly found red matter substance - this could be a way to establish a connection between the two and perhaps persuade kids to learn more about the older Star Trek series such as TNG, DS9 and Voyager - It might be good to see a post Nemesis Trek universe similar to the comic book; Countdown. If successful I would want to see this show develop and grow whilst all the time being linked to the movies with references much like Clone Wars has evolved but stayed within the boundaries set by the Star Wars universe.

For the release of the 2012 movie I would want to see CBS get some big brands to promote the Star Trek license; Hasbro should hold the 'master toy license' DST would keep a trimed down license to produce ships and prop replicas, QMx would continue doing high end replicas from the alternate universe, eFx would continue with replicas from the prime universe, Lego would be brought in to produce kits based on alternate timeline Star Trek with the choice to produce prime timeline kits as well. Rockstar Games or EA Games would be brought in at the end of 2010 to develop an eloaborate multi-level, character driven as well as ship driven console game with the aim to make the game as memorable as Halo and Bio-shock as well as a sequel between sequels - much like any spin-offs from this alternate universe the computer game would be based within the new universe but feature new lead characters with cameo's from the stars of the movie.

My opinion is that it is essential that CBS/Paramount focus on the new universe first and foremost rather than confusing kids and new fans in releasing a totally different show set in a totally different universe.

It is also essential that whilst they should get the brand name 'Star Trek' out there on a bigger scale than they did with the first movie, they don't oversaturate the brand by releasing too many Star Trek productions - especially live action TV series. As soon as Abrams has finished the films he want's to be involved with (I'd guess 3) then they should talk TV series with a totally new team (perhaps Ronnald D. Moore).

Alhough this all sounds quite the opposite, It is imperative they continue to spoon feed us Star Trek in order to keep people interested in it rather than sick of the sight of it but also ensure that the flame doesn't completely die out - In much the same way as WB market the Batman franchise. Merchandise is the key and should be used effectively to promote the brand year in year out as well as things marketed to kids to keep them engaded in the brand - this is where an animated series would help as well as a toy company like Hasbro and Lego who have the resources to market a brand without having a movie to back it up, this is where toys based on the animated series would bridge the gap between toys based on the movies...

In the futue I think any product with the Star Trek name on it should be in uniformed packaging that takes it's designs from the new universe and NOT the prime universe. This will add some clarification to the Star Trek brand rather than two different uniformed packaging designs, this would in my mind confuse people and doesn't look as definitive on the shelves. ONE packaging desgn for ONE franchise.

As for the established prime universe (TOS - ENT); they should continue to rerun each TV seres but aside from that, It should be rested apart from a possible link within an animated series, with only a few merchandise items coming out based on it each year for the moment, In no way should new live-action shows be based on it or in it until at least Abrams has finished his stint in the alternate universe and even then I'm not sure a full-blown return to the prime timeline would be a good idea - the focus for now however should be on the new universe and the new Star Trek characters so that they have a chance to establish themselves and re-establish the Star Trek brand with a younger generation - the prime universe is there for them to explore if they so wish to do so...

#128 Alex

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 02:32 AM

QUOTE (1701 @ Aug 23 2010, 01:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some good points there Alex but I'm not sure where you saw Orci state their looking for inspiration from fans, the only thing I've heard is that they are listening to the fans of the FIRST movie, the people who care about these characters and looking at other successful sequels like Empire Strikes Back and The Dark Knight, (I'm sure there looking at other things as well but these are the examples mentoned). Click here for Info

Star Trek: The Magazine's September/October issue had the quote from Orci in it. I believe this is issue #28 in the US, and it's 100% supported by Paramount. (Not sure if the same is true of Trekmovie.) The Bryan Burk interview was interesting though, but it's entirely different from the one that I was talking about.

A quick note about the magazine--those of you in the UK will have a radically different issue number; this is because the magazine was originally released in the UK while "Communicator" was still being published in the US. As far as I'm aware the magazine is the same in the UK and in the US now, but I could be wrong--I know that at first there were differences between the two and that didn't go over very well. I believe the only difference now is the issue number, and both are printed on the cover.


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Posted 24 August 2010 - 11:09 AM

An interesting article with Damon Lindelof about how Star Trek 2 is taking shape

Alex, As with so many franchises like Star Trek it is essential that the people creatng it are seen respecting the fan-base so It may very well be they are listening to the fans and taking onboard what we say but they are not going to make a movie just by listening to the fans. Their goal from the beginning was to 'make Star Trek cool again' they will undoubtably continue in that vein as they progress and establish their Star Trek universe in the second movie. Just as they will undoubtably make sure the second movie is as easily accessable for a wide audience as the 2009 movie.

As for the authenticity of Trekmovie.com - whilst many may not like it for being biast (about what I don't know) - the editor has built relationships up with the 'Supreme Court' (Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, Burk and Lindelof) so much so infact that Bob Orci is often on the comment boards there. Whilst it may not be licensed by CBS/Paramount, they do provide accurate reports either with first hand interviews or via other reliable news sources - if it's a rumour they will state it as well as rumour.

#130 Alex

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:50 PM

Regarding TrekMovie, I know that the the person behind the blog is on good terms with the Trek "supreme court", but what the "supreme court" wants may not always be what Paramount wants; Startrek.com (Paramount's official website for the franchise,) makes it clear that such interventions between Paramount higher ups and the production crew have occurred before, via a TrekToday blog post:

http://www.trektoday...voyager-finale/

The whole interview was in issue #199 of SFX magazine.

My point was that just because one thing is planned doesn't mean it'll pan out, or that Paramount (or CBS) will like it.

The newer Burk interview (also a good read) is more on par with Orci's comments in ST:TM, which were actually taken from an IGN interview earlier this year.

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 02:24 PM

Of course, when you begin on a project, the end result is going to be different and thats good because it means you've explored all the ideas and options but, you can see the direction it seems to be taking:

QUOTE
The bar is very very high for the sequel. We are looking at a movie like The Dark Knight which actually went one step beyond Batman Begins. It was really about something and at the same time was a superhero movie. We don’t want to abandon all the things that made the first movie work — have it be fun and emotional, but we also want the movie to thematically resonate, so we are putting on our highfalutin hats


In a nut-shell; yes the 'supreme court' will listen to the fans, Trekmovie.com seems to be their direct contact point with many fans aside from interviews given to media outlets - including trekmovie.com and Star Trek: Magazine, Paramount don't have any invested interest in trekmovie.com or any other Star Trek news blog however, CBS has recently updated their website to include a feature that links trekmovie.com (and other Trek 'blogs') with the official Trek page, Paramount approached Abrams to revive the Trek franchise - they obviously had a goal in making Star Trek mainstream and I'm sure both Abrams and Paramount work together to achieve their goals but ultimately it's up to the supreme court to make their movie...

Also just on a side note; since Bad Robot have an invested interest in Star Trek, Abrams probably has more creative control over his movies (not just Trek) than Berman or Bragga did who had no such production company. of course this is just conjecture but it would make sense since Star Trek was co-produced by Bad Robot.




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