30 replies to this topic

[weyoun_9]

Saw on www.startrek.com the results of a "favorite Star Trek series" survey. When last I looked, the winner is The Next Generation at 35%, followed by The Original Series at 23%, Voyager at 22%, Deep Space Nine at 17%, and Enterprise at 4%.

Basically, I feel like it might send the message that using the successful sales of purely TOS figures may not be the best barometer for overall sales of DST Trek toys to the current market, which may be a contributing factor to the lines decline/demise.

What does this mean for Trek toy sales? Maybe taking a chance on new Voyager and TNG figures might not be as risky as DST might predict. What do you all think of these results? Surprised? Have you voted? Does it mean anything? (I know...probably not...but let's dish anyway)

[knightone]

An unscientific poll of Trek fans who care to visit startrek.com isn't the best barometer for what would sell in the general market.

Although it appears only a small fraction of the core base is still buying anything these days, so perhaps they should.

[weyoun_9]

No, I totally agree that it's unscientific...but I also think that the majority of the DST/AA marketing and purchasing, at least that I've seen, has been online, so it's interesting to see the online Trek responses.

[Gothneo]

... it appears only a small fraction of the core base is still buying anything these days...

Basically I think what that may imply is that the TOS / TNG is a specific generations "Star Trek" and that while DS9, VOY, ENT and the 2009 Movie are (have) tried to capture this same type of "Zeitgeist" for following generations, the franchise has struggled in doing so.

[Alex]

Basically I think what that may imply is that the TOS / TNG is a specific generations "Star Trek" and that while DS9, VOY, ENT and the 2009 Movie are (have) tried to capture this same type of "Zeitgeist" for following generations, the franchise has struggled in doing so.

Gothneo, it's been my experience that fans who are generally 27 and younger (maybe 28 at most,) tend to have a much more positive view of VOY as their generation's "Trek" then fans 28 and older do. There are quite a few casual Trek fans in the 27 and younger group that I mentioned who would be interested in VOY related toys, but being casual fans, they don't tend to be as vocal as the less casual fans who tend to favor TOS/TNG. It's interesting to note that after the poll closed...

- TOS and VOY each had 22% of the vote, with VOY having 1056 votes and TOS having 1028 votes
- TNG had 33% of the vote, with 1566 votes, making it the most popular Trek in this poll.
- DS9 received 16% of the vote, followed by ENT at 7% of the vote, and TAS receiving a whopping 0% of the vote

Granted, the poll isn't scientific, but if it's remotely accurate, it does show that TNG should sell better then TOS does, and that VOY should sell just as well, if not slightly better then TOS does. I do think that this poll reflects why fans want DST to move beyond TOS and to do some VOY and additional TNG figures as well.

On a more general level, it also proves your point about each generation having it's own "Trek," but I'll go a step further and say that VOY should be included with TOS and TNG. The way I see it, the generational break-down looks something like this:

- Baby Boomers: TOS
- Gen-X: TNG
- Millennials: VOY

I still feel that Paramount made a mistake when they didn't jump on the opportunity to do VOY movies; a lot of my friends grew up with VOY, and many of us were hoping for VOY movies once the TNG movies ended. VOY characters also tended to make more cameos in the TNG movies then characters from any other Trek series. I'm not counting Worf since he was originally from TNG, and I'm not counting the TOS-era scenes from Generations as cameos, because the events on the Enterprise-B seem to be more significant then what the term "cameo" would imply. VOY does have a large following, it just tends to be a bit quieter then the followers of TOS and TNG.

In any case, I hope that DST sees this and at least considers taking some risks beyond TOS. VOY figures are something that I'd like, and others seem to finally be speaking out for them as well, so maybe DST will get the hint and make some. More TNG figures would be nice as well, , but truth be told, I"d prefer to have more ships and Tek then figures, which DST seems to be just fine with providing. However I'd love some Tek from VOY and TNG, and not just TOS. Tricorders and Phasers are no-brainers, medical kits a Phaser Rifle, and the doctor's mobile emitter should at least be looked into.

[Quadrotritacale]

Well, I'm 27 and I hate "Star Trek: Voyager". I have given it chance after chance, and I still can't stand it. I tried to watch what are supposedly some of the best episodes, like the crossover with Sulu, "Year of Hell", and the series finale, and every time I watch that show I just find it and its characters SO boring. It has never really justified its existence to me. Unlike TNG and DS9, I don't feel that it did anything really new or original with the Star Trek formula.

None of its plots or characters held any unique intrigue. I find the character of Tuvok sort of cute because he's so obviously just a guy doing a Spock impression, but that doesn't say much for his substance as a character. I like Kate Mulgrew's voice and the way she interacts with Q (neat, different dynamic when the captain he's playing with is a woman), but again, that's an example of the show only having quality by playing off what came before (Q's affectionate antagonism of Picard, only with a woman). The only episodes I've even remotely enjoyed are the Q ones, and I think that's mostly because John De Lancie is so great, he can make almost anything good.

I love the first three Star Trek shows. I haven't seen much of "Star Trek: Enterprise", but I saw a few episodes from season 4, and they were worlds better than anything I've seen on "Star Trek: Voyager". Having said that, I do think Kate Mulgrew is a terrific-looking dame and a Janeway figure would be pretty cool. "Star Trek: The Next Generation" is "my" Star Trek. It's the one I grew up watching and I have the most affection for its characters.

I think "Star Trek: Voyager" was one series too many. It was a miracle that three Star Trek shows could be excellent. 4 was pushing it. I don't know if I'd want "Star Trek: Enterprise" not to exist, though, because those season 4 episodes they did which tied into the continuity of the original series were just fantastic. The original "Star Trek" may not have the slick effects and more sophisticated storytelling of "Star Trek: Voyager" (which is too derivative of its two immediate predecessors to be really impressive), but it's a hell of a lot more creative, memorable, and endearing.

[Destructor!!!]

I wouldn't count Flashback or the series finale as good episodes, really. Flashback was neat because you got to see the events of Star Trek VI from a new (flawed) perspective. The storyline used to shoehorn that perspective into the plot was fairly lame.

Endgame was just tripe, through and through. Any episode where Voyager engaged the Borg, while, with the exception of the finale, they could be engaging and entertaining, failed on the basic point of:

"Here's an under-supplied, under-crewed Science ship, far from home, and they're going toe to toe with a cube and failing to turn to vapour."

"Someone to Watch Over Me" and "Year of Hell" are probably the highlights of the show, for me.

I wouldn't call myself a Voyager fan. It deeply failed to live up to it's potential. The line towed from the beginning was far too "safe". Battlestar Galactica is what Voyager should have been. Dark, desparate, gritty, dirty, occasionally unpleasant. Basically, the entire show should have been Year Of Hell.

That said, if I had to erase one trek series from canon, it'd be Enterprise. It just contradicted way too much established backstory. The first three seasons were weak and formulaic in the extreme. When they did any fan service, it was obvious, flag-flying fan service, when the whole show should have been serving the fans who knew the history with subtle details, like recogniseable ship designs (daedelus class, for example) and the daily rigors of early warp exploration. Things should have been a whole lot more difficult for them.

Like you, TNG was my Trek. Watching that show feels like going home!

I've recently gained an enhanced appreciation for DS9, though. It was such a grown up show. It's quality of drama and richness of character shine through more clearly to me today, and stand up to the likes of BSG in my mind.

[JMW326]

I have liked all of the shows for what they are, Star Trek. Of course I have disliked certain things about all of them but that is to be expected. I guess I just don''t get how some people can like one version and absolutely HATE another. They are all part of one big adventure just set in different parts and times in the universe. They all have their flaws and they all have their good points.

[Destructor!!!]

I come closest to hating Enterprise. If you were a died-in-the-wool trekker at the time that it premiered, it was like a slap in the face. We'd lapped up all the continuity established before hand, and become comfortable with the consistency of the world. We took it very seriously. Voyager's later seasons had shaken that, but now along came Enterprise to tear down and rebuild the foundations of what Trek was.

Initially, I didn't follow the show. Everything about it screamed blasphemy. They had the wrong tech at the wrong time on the wrong (and incredibly lazy) design of ship. The characters had the wrong attitudes for the time, and were too comfortable with the operation of what was supposed to be humanity's first REAL starship. It just felt like a retro-styled 24th century historical re-enactment society ship.

I tuned in occasionally, maybe catching about 15 episodes in total, and only the ones from the 4th season impressed me. But even then it was clear that the show was out on a limb. Manny Coto had come in too late. He was trying to steer the how back to how it should have started, but he was saddled with the baggage of how it actually did start.

It speaks to my opinion of the show that the first episode I could really respect (although A Mirror, Darkly was wonderful camp fan-wankery), was the penultimate one. Terra Prime was a quality episode of Star Trek, with more action, suspense, and genuine intrigue than most episodes of Voyager. It was respectful of canon (in so far as the pre-established trappings of Enterprise as a show allowed), and it bore Star Trek's time-honored message of IDIC. Great stuff!

So while I have a very very low opinion of Enterprise, I wouldn't say I hated it. Not anymore, anyway. But the reason I hold so much hostility towards it is that, as you say,
the various Trek shows are part of one big adventure, set in different parts and times of the Universe. To those steeped in the fictional history of the franchise, Enterprise
didn't feel like a fitting part of Trek's Space-Time Continuum.

[weyoun_9]

I definitely think DST underestimated the fan base for Voyager in delaying, and subsequently not creating, any figures (so far, he says hopefully) from that series. Releasing Voyager and Deep Space Nine figures at the same time would probably have been the safest bet to lock buyers into both lines. Frankly, though I'm a bigger fan of the First Contact uniforms...they could have done the DS9 crew in the earlier look and recycled bodies for Voyager as well.

I also think that they are overestimating the popularity of TOS to a degree, especially in terms of where they do a lot of their marketing, which seems to be primarily online. There was and is some untapped TNG potential that would definitely have done well...possibly as well...and it's a shame they've put everything on hold instead of trying to get a few more out.

Regarding Enterprise...the 4th season was definitely the best. It was what the show had promised to be all along. I like some of the other eps for different reasons, but not nearly as much. Season 2 was pretty much worthless.

Oh...and someone said that Voyager should have been more BSG like. Brannon and Rick actually wanted the 4th season to have that feeling, stretched over the entire season to try that format out and the studio said no. So, they reduced the entire concept to the two part ep. "Year of Hell." Granted, its likely that, if the end of the season was a temporal reboot and wipe out of the entire season, fans probably would have been pissed off...but still. They did try to experiment with going that direction.

[Destructor!!!]

I didn't know that. Interesting.

I lost sight of the topic in the previous posts, and for that I apologise. I, too, know a great many people who wouldn't regard themselves as fans, but who enjoyed Voyager a lot. Women, mostly, who identified with Janeway. It must be said, they took her on an interesting character arc in the fifth season. She started to lose her mind a little. That was new and unsettling. Challenging.

As a child, yep, I definitely enjoyed Voyager. But looking back, and maybe this is just because I rewatched all of it recently, DS9 is the more memorable series. Seasons 4, 5, and 6 really knocked it out of the park, with the war arcs producing some of the best, most intelligent episodes of Star Trek ever made.

But you had to watch it. Voyager, like TNG, was a more self-contained weekly show. That's good for casual viewing, and maybe there is an untapped, silent market of casual nostalgists out there to appeal to.

The problem is, for DST, that the experiment to find out if there is could be cost prohibitive. They'd have to produce at least a wave of figures and a ship model, to get any sense of that audience's preferences. If it failed, it could bring down the company. There is that consistent feeling of the financial knife edge in all of Chuck's Q&As, and it helps me forgive them the slipping release dates and the poor Q/C.

As someone mentioned, they could stand to advertise a little more. I saw a scan of a magazine ad on the internet, for the [glorious] Enteprise-D. I think that came out of
Star Trek Communicator.

That should have been in a TV Guide or two. They need to cast the net a little wider, but I wonder if that financial knife-edge will let them.

[TheHSBR]

Im 28 and Voyager is my series that I watched first run (and only series). I have since rewatched all the series and from my vantage point now they stand as follows:
VOY
DS9/ENT
TNG
TOS

I also think season 4 of ENT is the best season of Trek from any series. I also loved the characters in VOY most of any crew. the only person I disliked was kes and they booted her from the show. As stupid as it sounds, I fell for every trick that the writers used when playing up the angle of "will VOY get home." In addition to all that Equinox Pt 1 & 2 ranks in my top 5 trek episodes of all time.

As for DST, even in this toy market I cant see how a line of 7 of 9 figures wont sell. I dont care if your a fan of Trek or not, the 7 of 9 figure will gain interest on the shelf by the common "fanboy" passing by. I know Ive bought some pretty stupid figures Ive never heard of for the same reason...lol. DST is missing a gold mine IMO by not releasing 7 and it is also one of the greatest disappointments in my life thus far!

[Gothneo]

I'm always disappointed that DS9 is viewed so unfavorably. It took me awhile to get DS9. Previously, with TOS or TNG, every episode was basically a stand-alone. DS9 changed that and made Star Trek a serial drama, and I'd like to say I got it right off, but the truth is it took me until season 3 to really get it, and then I was hooked. The same formula was carried to VOY, but it wasn't quite done the same, and ENT tried to keep these threads running in parallel that just didn't work for me.

When they dropped that and went to a format of basically running 2-3 episode serials it worked, but as everyone has pointed out it was too late by then.

[Destructor!!!]

Good point, TheHSBR, Equinox Pt1&2 kicked ass.

Though it did make me wonder if we should have been watching Star Trek: Equinox for the last 5 years instead of Voyager just kidding.

1701, I don't think Quality is DST's problem, it's Quality Control. The sculpt detail, the play features, are second to none, if you ask me. It's the finishing of the toys that fails. My first 1701HD literally fell apart as I was taking it gently out of it's box.

The idea for the DST Super Series is interesting, but it'd be sure to get mired up in nasty licensing issues. I'm also not sure if there'd be enough interest in a toy company as a brand to justify such a series. If these are deluxe items, and this is like a brand category, a prestige sticker slapped on the boxes of the best of DST's stuff, then cool, that'd work, and probably build the brand.

Your point about the AA/DST divide is good. What exactly is the nature of that relationship? From what I can tell, they're the same company. I heard something about the Art Asylum 'inmates' leaving a few years back, so does the company even really properly exist any longer? DSTChuck posts on the AA website. It's all very confusing. Rebrand needed, and recognition that they make the best Trek Toys EVER from Paramount/CBS, with a nice hefty cash injection to get new lines off the ground, with cooperation on an Awesome Factor 12 advertising campaign.

[weyoun_9]

Sorry...this won't be long, as in lots of words...but it will take up space. Here's a few more startrek.com polls. Picard beat Kirk for "popular captain"...the others aren't really surprises. Sure does indicate that, unscientifically of course, that Voyager would fare better than Deep Space Nine in the marketplace. The EMH is the second favorite Doctor and Janeway is next behind Picard. Plus, once the poll closed...Voyager and TOS were tied. Again, not scientific, I know...but it's enough for me to go "Hmmm..." At the very least, between First Contact and Voyager...there's an argument for the Borg Queen.

What is your favorite TNG movie?
1. Generations - 39 (15%); 2. First Contact - 166 (64%); 3. Insurrection - 19 (7%); 4. Nemesis - 34 (13%)

What is your favorite TOS movie?
1. The Motion Picture - 234 (5%); 2. The Wrath of Kahn - 2217 (43%); 3. The Search for Spock - 263 (5%); 4. The Voyage Home - 1388 (27%)
5. The Final Frontier - 155 (3%); 6. The Undiscovered Country - 888 (17%)

Who is your favorite Star Trek doctor?
1. Leonard McCoy - 3205 (45%); 2. Beverly Crusher - 809 (11%); 3. Julian Bashir - 539 (7%); 4. The Doctor - 2303 (32%); 5. Phlox - 344 (5%)

What is your favorite Star Trek captain?
1. James T. Kirk - 7175 (30%); 2. Jean-Luc Picard - 9661 (40%); 3. Benjamin Sisko - 2150 (9%)
4. Kathryn Janeway - 3246 (14%); 5. Jonathan Archer - 1706 (7%)

What is you favorite Star Trek series?
1. The Original Series - 1028 (22%); 2. The Animated Series - 12 (0%); 3. The Next Generation - 1566 (33%); 4. Deep Space Nine - 774 (16%)
5. Voyager - 1056 (22%); 6. Enterprise - 320 (7%)

[Quadrotritacale]

I am shocked that "Star Trek: The Motion Picture", "Star Trek: The Animated Series", and "Star Trek: Generations" are ranked so highly. It MUST be due to nostalgia, because they're all vastly inferior to the things ranked directly below them.

[weyoun_9]

I am shocked that "Star Trek: The Motion Picture", "Star Trek: The Animated Series", and "Star Trek: Generations" could top any poll. It MUST be because of nostalgia, because they're all vastly inferior to the things ranked directly below them.

Sorry...I could see where that could be confusing...they didn't top the polls... I copied the poll results from the website...they were listed in chronological order. I bolded the actual "winners", which were Wrath of Khan, The Next Generation, and First Contact (respectively). Didn't mean to confuse...

[Quadrotritacale]

Ah, that makes much more sense. At first, I thought maybe you just put YOUR favourites in bold, in which case my only thought would be, "damn straight...you definitely have better taste than most Star Trek fans, according to that poll".