81 replies to this topic

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

^^^Aw! That made me come over all warm and fuzzy!

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

On the other hand, we've gone quite a bit off topic. So let's repeat the question.

Knowing that there have been other interracial kisses on TV before Kirk and Uhura did it. Namely at least one kiss between a yellow woman and a white man in The Wild Wild West a year before the Kirk/Uhura kiss. So the questions are, shouldn't we give credit to other series with earlier interracial kisses? Isn't it insulting to Oriental people if we don't acknowledge the historical vallue of the first interracial kiss they participated in? Shouldn't we Star Trek fans stop to pat ourselves on the back that it was in our series the historic first interracial kiss took place? Ect.

Debate (serenely) please.

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

^^^If what you say is correct, then of course we should give credit. However, the fact remains that the Kirk/Uhura kiss remains iconic because it crosses that "colour Line", and maybe more people saw it?

[TheHSBR]

I dont think we should trivialize what the kirk/uhura kiss meant for TV. Yes other minorities have faced discrimination but nothing that can even come close to the oppression felt by African Americans at that time and maybe even today. We may need to retitle it from something other than "first interracial" but in no way does it lessen its importance in America. A kiss between an asain and white man (or vice versa) on TV pales in comparison to the kirk/uhura kiss. Thats not just from a trek perspective either, this is a pretty big event that is talked about in hostory books and programs. Other minorities (asian/hispanics, etc) were much more accepted on tv because they looked more like whites and in the days of B/W TV it could be hard to distinguish them with makeup and such. It wasnt until the last 20 years in the US where there has been a backlash to hispanics and thats mainly due to illegal immigration and people assuming that all hispanics are illegals.

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

^^^Yes, when we talk about racism and discrimination then we also talk about degrees. While there is no doubt that Asians ~ especially the Chinese ~ suffered some horrendous discrimination, they were basically economic migrants who left China because life was so hard there and they had an aim to bring their families across with them once they were established. The black population were bought to America against their will as slaves, and that is population movement on a whole different moral scale. As we have seen all too recently in the UK, economic migrants are ripe for exploitation and mistreatment. The Chinese men that built the railway in California may have been treated like slaves it's true, and they were regarded as a necessary evil, not a population the US wanted to see propagated ~ hence the Chinese 'bachelor society' that came about as a result of the US banning female Chinese migrants until the "paper brides" of the 2nd world war era.

The Chinese were definitely treated differently, but it has to be acknowledged that the Chinese themselves were inclined to treat Americans as "ghosts", and you can infer from that that they saw westerners in general as something less than human. The Chinese culture was so different from the mainstream American culture because it was Eastern. The Chinese migrants were somewhat distainful of American values and resisted them as much as they could. Mainstream US culture has always made a virtue out of being a "melting pot", but the Otherness of the Chinese made Americans believe that they Chinese people could never be culturally assimiliated, and this led to a great deal of mutual suspicion, and an unwilligness to allow more Chinese in. If you read Maxine Hong Kingston's The Warrior Woman set in 20th century Chinatown in San Francisco you will be able to experience the difficulties first generation Chinese Amercans had in reconciling Chinese culture with the relative freedoms afforded by the US to those who could access them.

American Asians may have had a rough time, so did American Jews, but the racism is based upon something other than colour. The blacks were treated as an inferior species and it took vocal activists like W E Dubois to show the world in the early 20th century that blacks were thinking people who could be articulate. Asians and Jews were discriminated against for other reasons. The Chinese left their homeland to seek a better life and keep their relatives back in China alive; many Jews arrived in the US because they were displaced my pogroms in Eastern Europe, but the Africans arrived in the US in chains. It is this fact that keeps consciousness of the Black struggle to the fore in the US, that and in the 1960s, the blacks had had enough of serving their country and being denied so much of the American dream because of the colour of their skin. Simply put: they got themselves organised, built on what few but important advances had been made before, and made the Civil Rights Movement happen in the face of huge danger. Simply put, they had suffered the most and they had had enough.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

And what about native Americans? Weren't they slaughtered? Their land stolen from them?

[FHC]

Looking at the title of this thread is asks if the kiss was the first one on TV. I'm not sure that the current topic is about the question in the title?

Anyway,

Every country that has ever been since the dawn of time has done things that most people would rather forget. I would say that as long as one group has something that a different group wants, you're going to have a problem.

[Artistix]

Yes, Australia has it's fair share of things the government hopes to forget.

The country is urging our Prime Minister, the greasy & bumbling John Howard, to reconcile with our Aboriginals...but he's holding off as long as he can...he's managed to avoid it for years now & continues to do so.

"But they'll re-claim stuff...they may want to take YOUR land"

Good, I say...let them have it.

Reconciliation is a big step...it is necessary.

What does that have to do with an interracial kiss on US TV....nothing.

A trekker friend of mine who was of mixed heritage (I believe that is the most current PC term to use) was incensed by McCoy calling Data "boy", because it was a term used by white people to black slaves and pretty much a Southern tradition. She was English too, and it riled her greatly.

Something that would not have passed my mind. You never know how something can effect different people.

I had become somewhat used to the term 'gay' as a negative..."Man, thats soo gay"
I never liked it, but always shrugged it off.

Not anymore. Because it is not innocent...instead of saying something is total crap or absolute BS, they say it is gay, hence referring to gay people as something bad! Not cool.

I guess that person thought he meant well, but truly that statement was highly offensive to black women, even back then. It's an apalling endictment of white male privelege over black women, in that it says that it's OK to kiss a black woman, it maybe OK to have sex with her (a I just read a line in James Baldwin's Another Country to the effect that women with bad reputations get treated in a certain way and black women are born with bad reputations and are seen as sexually available), maybe even have a child (slave owners routinely impregnated black women to produce Mulatto workers), but marry one?? Treat her as an equal?? Treat her with respect?? If one believes in separation of the races, you can't afford to do the last three, and you must deny any mixed race child any kind of place in a segragated society!

You see....I had never even looked at it that way!

I had seen it in the more positive light. This guy, whoever he was, was making a statement....he is still afraid of the backlash from his comment, hence those first few words...."I believe in the seperation of the races...BUT..."

We do not know the man...perhaps if he saw a white woman kissing a black man...he would have said the same thing. But then, is it still just as wrong? (taking into account the attitude of the era) not the seperation of the races thing, but the rest.

This is why discussions like this are important...it is best to have as many views on a topic as possible before you start making your own judgements. Cheers Jules...& everyone else.

I am proud of you all. 40 posts in this thread and it's still very civilized. And I know it will remain so.

It would seem to be the case that we are birds of a feather. Perhaps it is Trek's own message that allows us to understand each other. Racial diversity was a big thing in TOS. Everyone working together.

It would be odd for a Trek fan to be closed minded. Though I'm sure there are a few.

Out of interest, how did the black communities respond to the interracial kiss in Trek?

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

^^^I'd be interested in knowing that too!

I was going to go talk about white women with black men, but I thought it would get too complex (a different dynamic seems to be at work there), so I thought I'd stick to adressing the statement the man made. You may well indeed be right about the qualification and the "but" ~ I didn't see it that way to begin with!

As for the shift in the use of the word "gay". I too have issues with that, and I won't allow my daughter to use gay as a perjorative term. I can't see how anybody can justify using "gay" in that way and then try and wriggle out of it by saying it's just a word that has no connection to homosexuals. When I'm an English teacher, it's one adjective I won't tolerate my students using in a negative way.

To Berns: TBH, I didn't even think of Native Americans ~ of course they too suffered. We also tend to forget how England was conquered many times and the indigenous people oppressed!

This has been a good discussion, and totally Trek!

[VulcanFanatic]

Working as a Correctional Officer for many years ive encountered many young Black men who complain about "Disrespect". Respect is something that must be earned and if you do not respect others or do anything worthy of respect, you do not get the kind of respect they are complaining about not getting. While there are many great examples of progress within the black community, it seems to be its own enemy. We incarcerate many more black men in North Carolina than any other race, and the evening news seems to show daily young black men involved in some sort of crime, usually murders and robberies. While some may say that Black families tend to be poorer and cannot afford better legal representation and therefore recieve more prison sentences, it still appears that black men commit the majority of the crimes. As long as this condition exists, white folks will fear black folks to an extent and society will never be fully integrated like it could be. Yes, a large part of the black community lives in poverty and wherever poverty exists, depression and hopelessness can come in and try to take over but every human being makes a concious decision to make it in this world or not. There are "Help wanted" signs everywhere i look that beg to be filled by someone who wants to work. It is easier to sit on the sofa and watch tv than it is to go to a job everyday and i wish i had the luxury of doing that, but i dont. There is an element in every race that wants something for nothing and has learned how to play the Government program agencies and live without working. This is not exclusive to the Black race, but to a large extent it exists. In the Prison i work in, i have learned over time how some of this works. Many Black inmates i have known have several children by different women so that the women do not have to work, but can take advantage of all of the available goverment programs. The women send the inmates money from the goverment assistance recieved to support the woman and children. This has continued with several generations of families being raised in Government project housing with no inclination to ever leave it. This is a large drain on the Taxpayer. I could put good use to the amount of money i pay in taxes that goes to support deadbeats like this. There are genuine cases of people who need Government help that are deserving of it, but people who are preying on the working families of America through goverment programs are reprehensible to me.

My point is that there is a lot of work to be done by the Black community as well as the White community to make society as whole a better place where all races are respected and treated equally.

[Artistix]

It does seem to be the same with the Aussie Aboriginies...MANY are in prison, a lot of the crime in town seems to involve them.

Soo many reports of domestic abuse, petophilia (sp), sniffing petrol....I honestly can't tell you if things are the same for whites & blacks (in that respect) in my area...for the last few months they have really been looking into the desperate situations of the Aboringinals, especially those living in outback isolated areas. Their situation seems truely horrible.

It actually surprises me that I have yet to meet an Aboriginal who's personality seems to reflect this...it is rare I even see them, excpect on Wednesday when they go downtown to get their government cheque thingy...but all I have met are really nice people...rascals, yes ...but really nice to be around.

As VF said, It is not a sitaution that white man can change by themselves...& I would hate to see what could happen if we try to force ways of life on them again.

It's soo difficult...I just want peace...I guess everyone does....atleast I hope they do.

Do you actually see many of the native Indians around in the US? or are they more isolated as well?

It would have been nice to see a Trek series that only had ONE token white guy...& everyone else was Native US, African America & various other races.......never happen!

[TheHSBR]

most of the native americans have integrated into mainstream society. very few actually live on the reservations and the ones that do live in extreme poverty. the tribal casinos are supposed to help but they too benifit the few. there have been many projects designed to build monuments and museums to native american history.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

It would have been nice to see a Trek series that only had ONE token white guy...& everyone else was Native US, African America & various other races.......never happen!

Oh, and has anyone noticed that the Star Trek Captains who came after Kirk were only one step away from the white American male? I mean Picard wasn't American but he was white and male. Sisco wasn't white but he was American and male. Janeway wasn't male but she was American and white.

[TheHSBR]

Voyager came very close to having a non majority cast:
Chakotay - Mexican/Native American
Kim - Asian-American
Tuvok - African Americans
Janeway - female (even though women outnumber men on earth, they too face many of the same problems minorities face)

id say half aint bad

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

It would be true that women face ~ even today ~many of the difficulties faced by minority groups. However, speaking as a woman, the thing that has always frustrated me about so-called "Women's Rights" is how they have been characterised as a minority or special interest. How can roughly half the population be regarded as a minority?

In the UK back in the 1980s I poured scorn on the Labour Party for lumping women's issues with ethnic and disabled issues. The way I see it, women's struggle for equality in work and in pay have an effect upon not just themselves and other women, but on thair male partners and male offspring ~ in other words the entire population of this planet!

Aid groups are slowly cottoning onto the fact that the best way of beating poverty and disease in the Third World is to direct resources towards the education of women because if you educate one woman, then you educate an entire village. It is time that the substance behind the platitude "the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world" was realised.

[Artistix]

They did seem to stop trying with the Trek Captains. They have broken whatever ground they wanted to break.

We had the young dashing white American Captain
We had the mature French white Captain with an English accent
We had a black American Captain
We had a white female American Captain

And now we're back to the dashing young white Yankee!!

Come on...where's our Fijian transvestite gay midget female captain...huh??...huh??

Voyager came very close to having a non majority cast:
Chakotay - Mexican/Native American
Kim - Asian-American
Tuvok - African Americans
Janeway - female (even though women outnumber men on earth, they too face many of the same problems minorities face)

id say half aint bad

A lot of people were't happy with a female captain. My uncle Joe the angry German refused to watch. I think the beefed up role of women in Voyager really isolated a lot of Trekfans....they can look up to Kirk or Picard or Sisko...but can they do the same for a female? can they identify with her?

I really never understood what people had against Voyager. It had some really cool episodes...not all, much like any series...but definately some stand outs. I could only ever imagine that it was the strong feminine element.

TNG had plenty of women to start with...but Tasha was the only one of note. Crusher was barey used & Troi was completely left out of a few episodes in S1.

It would be true that women face ~ even today ~many of the difficulties faced by minority groups. However, speaking as a woman, the thing that has always frustrated me about so-called "Women's Rights" is how they have been characterised as a minority or special interest. How can roughly half the population be regarded as a minority?

I still find it bizarre that up until 100 or so years ago...you ladies couldn't even vote!!! Man that woulda sh*t me to tears.
And whilst I probably shouldn't say this...the way the Muslim women are treated is....well, it's heart breaking.
But we shouldn't go into that.

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

Come on...where's our Fijian transvestite gay midget female captain...huh??...huh??
A lot of people were't happy with a female captain. My uncle Joe the angry German refused to watch. I think the beefed up role of women in Voyager really isolated a lot of Trekfans....they can look up to Kirk or Picard or Sisko...but can they do the same for a female? can they identify with her?

I really never understood what people had against Voyager. It had some really cool episodes...not all, much like any series...but definately some stand outs. I could only ever imagine that it was the strong feminine element.

Your uncle Joe sounds like a guy in need of an education if you don't mind me saying so!

I must admit I also detected a certain degree of male chauvinism whenever the subject of Voyager came up. I think Janeway was a big test as to how inclusive the Trek world really is and how far some fans could carry the idea of IDIC ~ not very far in some cases. It's an interesting point you make. Women are expected to look up to men and we're not required to identify with them. What happens in reality is that no women with a brain automatically looks up to any man ~ including those nominally in authority ~ until they have proved their mettle in the job, or have attributes worth looking up to. It's true that men look up to men in authority because that is the patriarchal system.

In any case, Janeway made half the fanbase very happy, and what was so refreshing about the series is that it began from a standpoint that women were in command as a matter of course and we didn't have to work through that tedious women-making-it-in-a-man's-world scenario, and it just got on with things.

I still find it bizarre that up until 100 or so years ago...you ladies couldn't even vote!!! Man that woulda sh*t me to tears.

So do I! You can see why so many women now resist staying at home and raising kids because when that was all we did, our role was considered so unimportant that we weren't allowed a say in how the country we bought our kids into was run. To this day I resist any forms of addressing males that harks back to those times. I refuse to address any little boy on an envelope as "Master", and no one had better ever address me as Mrs Clive Cope!

And whilst I probably shouldn't say this...the way the Muslim women are treated is....well, it's heart breaking.
But we shouldn't go into that.

Maybe we shouldn't, but it's about time the UK government began addressing religion-based inequality under the Human Rights Act. There has been too much acceptance of practices that violate our laws to accommodate faiths.

[VulcanFanatic]

I must admit I also detected a certain degree of male chauvinism whenever the subject of Voyager came up. I think Janeway was a big test as to how inclusive the Trek world really is and how far some fans could carry the idea of IDIC

I think Janeway turned out to be a quite capable captain. I never liked that Katherine Hepburn hairdo she sported in the beginning, but that had nothing to do with her competency as a Captain. I think what may have turned some folks off is that even though this was the fourth live action Star Trek series, it was still a little early to eliminate white males completely from the senior staff, meaning the Captain, first officer and second officer positions. A woman as Captain was a big step, but a Black Vulcan too? And a Native American First Officer? A little bit too much to swallow all at one time by the overall audience. Star Trek's time period is ready for that but we are not there just yet. I grew to like Janeway, not as much as other Captains, and found Tuvok a convincing Vulcan but never really ever liked the character of Chakotay.

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

^^^You know I never even noticed a lack of white males among the senior crew! Maybe the producers thought that's a demographic who could use learning what it's like to be the ones marginalised for a change...maybe that was the intention. Who knows?

I liked Janeway a lot. Chakotay on the other hand....well, I found the idea of anyone in the 24th century putting his faith in tribal ways and a medicine bundle a bit far fetched, and he was always soooooo serious!

[VulcanFanatic]

Maybe the producers thought that's a demographic who could use learning what it's like to be the ones marginalised for a change...maybe that was the intention. Who knows?

Yes, perhaps, but it may have been also the demographic that could have made the show more of a success as well. My way of thinking and good business sense dictates that when you put out a product, you market it to a great extent to the majority of buyers, because otherwise it might not sell and your stuck with something you cant make a profit on.