81 replies to this topic

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

This entire topic proves my point. Amongst civilized and intelligent people racism is no longer of this age. It doesn't surprise me a bit that the entire topic has stayed very serene. I think we all see these things the same way. No matter what color, gender or sexual orientation we are all humans and we are all alike. I don't think either of us is going to debate that matter. This is not like a discussion about republicans and democrats. Such discussions will heat up, especially around election times. But this topic will not heat up, I'm sure of that.

Now I'm not saying there is no more racism in the world. But it would surprise me beyond imagination to find racism on this board.

In my country for example exept for a few tasteless jokes there is no more racism against the blacks. Because among them are teachers, doctors, lawyers, managers, etc. They are well respected and there's little criminal activity amongst them. Arabs are another matter. Most of them had little or no education. Not because they're not intelligent. But probably because their religious way of life keeps them too separated from others. As a result, poverty and criminal activity are common in their ranks. And as a result of that they are hated and feared by most people. This is wrong. There are plenty of good people amongst them. But there is strong hatred toward Morrocans in Belgium.

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

^^^I think you're drawing a very apt distinction between 'race' and 'culture' which is also very important to this topic. In Britain ~ where there was a certain pride taken in the assertion that we are a multi-cultural society ~ it has now been realised that religious and other cultural practices can stand in the way of tolerance, and can lead to isolation and disenfranchisement among different ethnic communities. So-called "home-grown terrorists" have taught us that, and now our politicians are engaged in a lively debate about how a basic British identity that we can all sign up to and that still repects difference can be promoted.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

Oh boy, this is becoming a bad habbit, but once again I agree with Jules. (The thought alone grings shivers down my spine.) But she's right. And today in my country racism is not about skin color anymore. It is all about cultural differences and positions on the social lader.

[TheHSBR]

In my country for example exept for a few tasteless jokes there is no more racism against the blacks. Because among them are teachers, doctors, lawyers, managers, etc. They are well respected and there's little criminal activity amongst them. Arabs are another matter. Most of them had little or no education.As a result, poverty and criminal activity are common in their ranks.

This is really the essential part of racism in America. The majority of African Americans are not any better off than their parents or grandparents were. They see themselves as young children as not having any hope or chances for the future. This circle of poverty leads them not to be successful and continue the circle itself. Economic situations will also reinforce stereotypes that the majority has in thier minds. Combating racism can be very tricky. One would think that by simply putting people together like for example busing students to schools to give it a different ethnic makeup would be a good idea. It can be but sometimes it backfires too.

Ive always found it interesting how much stereotypes affect our lives. The biggest problems with stereotypes is that there are always some truth in it. Its easier to see a group acting in a stereotypical way but not recognize when we ourselves act in the same way. It really is a double standard we apply to race.

I also believe that the environment in America between blacks/whites is different from anywhere else in the world sans South Africa. There has been such a hatred on both sides of the coin and that hatred was prevalent in THIS generation's lifetime. Its very difficult to get over the stereotypes in our minds. It also doesnt help that the media intensifies these steroetypes with their portrayal of African Americans.

In the ned I dont know when the problems of race will be fixed. Ive always said there will be problems until an alien comes down from the sky and then we can band together as humans to hate something that is truly different. There is no artificial way to bring people together to make them like each other. It will have to happen naturally and Im afraid that until we get the alien invasion there will always be racism in one form or another.

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

The cycle of poverty effects the outlook for black people in the UK too. There is real concern about young black males in particular. The tragedy of stereotypes is that they are all too often true because they are self-perpetuating. Stereotyped people often come to own the type and suffer from a real self-hatred as a result.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

Ive always said there will be problems until an alien comes down from the sky and then we can band together as humans to hate something that is truly different. There is no artificial way to bring people together to make them like each other. It will have to happen naturally and Im afraid that until we get the alien invasion there will always be racism in one form or another.

That is exactly what I have been saying for many years now. In fact, there's a Flemish graphic novel where one of the regulars, the scientist of the group, hides behind a mask and pretends to be an alien who will (with his robots and other inventions) take over the world. And yes, all of a sudden all of mankind works together to try to defeat him. Untill in the end he takes off his mask and says "Where are your differences now? You've shown how good you can work together. Now go on like this without the threat." And that graphic novel was written in 1957! I guess the writer/artist (Willy Vandersteen) was influenced by The Day the Earth Stood Still and created his story with "what if the alien in The Day the Earth Stood Still wasn't an alien at all" in mind.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

The majority of African Americans are not any better off than their parents or grandparents were. They see themselves as young children as not having any hope or chances for the future.

Well, this surprises me. The way I saw it, the majority of the African Americans were doctors, lawyers, policemen, judges, etc. At least that's what Hollywood shows us. I thought the sittuation you described died in the 1950's.

[TheHSBR]

Well, this surprises me. The way I saw it, the majority of the African Americans were doctors, lawyers, policemen, judges, etc. At least that's what Hollywood shows us. I thought the sittuation you described died in the 1950's.

Far far from the truth. Granted many more african americans are in those fields today but still the majority live in very low poverty. Projects and ghettos are still prevalent and the num,ber of black kids graduating high school and attending college is alarming. I work in a high school and many people ask why we dont have many black teachers in our very diversified district and the simple answer is that there arent many qualified applicants. I believe this is the case for other skilled professions as well. For every one success story i would guess there are 5-10 failures. The circle of poverty does not allow for young black students to think they can achive anything because "the man" will put them down. This is the hardest part about being a teacher is to get any minority to think that they can succeed if they try and that really the biggest thing holding them back are their own beliefs.

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

^^^He speaks the truth.

Hollywood is just the movies, not America, any more than Love Actually is an accurate depiction of London in December.

[Chalksquared]

Hollywood is just the movies, not America, any more than Love Actually is an accurate depiction of London in December.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

Well, as I said before. In Belgium blacks are not associated with poverty. But Arabs are.
On the other hand for every 1 success there are about 10 failures no matter what skin color you have. Some people just aren't intelligent enough to make through high school.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

Hollywood is just the movies, not America, any more than Love Actually is an accurate depiction of London in December.

Here's a confusing thought: In the old days you saw only whites in high places in the movies. Now, by trying to be politically correct they become factually incorrect in showing us a US where people of different skincolor are equally successful in life. A bit confusing indeed.

The most powerfull enemy of success is the thought that you will fail anyhow. It prevents you from trying to make it.

[TheHSBR]

On the other hand for every 1 success there are about 10 failures no matter what skin color you have. Some people just aren't intelligent enough to make through high school.

Im not saying success as in big money success but simply being able to raise a family and being able to support that family reasonably.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

Im not saying success as in big money success but simply being able to raise a family and being able to support that family reasonably.

That's what I meant as well.

[Artistix]

A world so overcome with fear...& anger.

Fear of difference....fear of loneliness...fear of nothingness. The anger of not being exactly who or what you had wanted, not having the best life possible.

Racism & intollerance are simply fear & anger....people will always be afraid & angry...so the world will always have problems.


Anyway, I'm not sure if both versions of 'the kiss' were seen on screen. The way I saw it looked soo fake...their mouths didn't even seem to be touching!! & he turned her so you couldn't see anyway!

[The_Donster]

Sam, I saw Nichelle for the first time approximately 11 years ago, maybe less(Her brother died a few days later with the UFO Cult), along with Avery Brooks. What she said was that there were 2 takes, one with the kiss and the other going to break to appease the less tolerant. Apparently they were running late and this was costing some major money to keep the stage crew on(union rules or some such). So they only had time to take 2 more shots and Shatner purposely made a face to screw up the shot they were going to go with(the no kiss scene). Since he didn't see what the big deal was and wanted to kiss the girl She told this story affectionately, much like her Dr. King story I recently saw her last year and she's added a little drama to the story, but it's still done with the same affection for Gene and the crew. For me, that's what Star Trek was all about back in the day, breaking down barriers and showing that everyone could co-exist, along as Kirk got to kiss the girl

[Artistix]

I recall a quote by some guy (imaginably important) from back at the time...if anyone knows the quote please post it.

It was somewhere along the lines of:

"I believe in the seperation of the races, but if a young American lad like Kirk wants to kiss a good looking gal like Uhura, I have no problem with it."

I thought it was kinda touching & nice to hear....from a white guy in the 60's!

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

Here's a confusing thought: In the old days you saw only whites in high places in the movies. Now, by trying to be politically correct they become factually incorrect in showing us a US where people of different skincolor are equally successful in life. A bit confusing indeed.

The most powerfull enemy of success is the thought that you will fail anyhow. It prevents you from trying to make it.

That was exactly my point! Thank you for understanding it!

Here's another thing: I have an issue with the black actresses in Hollywood conforming to a sanitized western male version of 'acceptable' black women. They tend to be quite pale in complexion and are wedded to fake hair extensions that make them look like R&B honyeez. This doesn't apply to the men, just the women, and it makes me angry that we don't get to see more ebony Goddesses out there. Don't get me started on the debates I've had about any possible casting of Uhura in Star Trek XI. Beyonce Knowles ~ for crying out loud?!

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

"I believe in the seperation of the races, but if a young American lad like Kirk wants to kiss a good looking gal like Uhura, I have no problem with it."

I thought it was kinda touching & nice to hear....from a white guy in the 60's!

I guess that person thought he meant well, but truly that statement was highly offensive to black women, even back then. It's an apalling endictment of white male privelege over black women, in that it says that it's OK to kiss a black woman, it maybe OK to have sex with her (a I just read a line in James Baldwin's Another Country to the effect that women with bad reputations get treated in a certain way and black women are born with bad reputations and are seen as sexually available), maybe even have a child (slave owners routinely impregnated black women to produce Mulatto workers), but marry one?? Treat her as an equal?? Treat her with respect?? If one believes in separation of the races, you can't afford to do the last three, and you must deny any mixed race child any kind of place in a segragated society!

Star Trek hasn't always got things right. Many thought that the version of Kirk/Uhura kiss looked forced and was therefore a cop-out. A trekker friend of mine who was of mixed heritage (I believe that is the most current PC term to use) was incensed by McCoy calling Data "boy", because it was a term used by white people to black slaves and pretty much a Southern tradition. She was English too, and it riled her greatly.

Last night I saw British black commedian Lenny Henry bridle at the use of the N word when some Irish men were explaining how naive the Northern Irish were when it came to matters of colour. They were so busy hating each other because they were either protestant or Catholics that colour prejduce barely blipped on their radars. Women would sit around knitting and complaining in all innocence that N***** brown wool didn't knit up as well as black wool, and once did this on a bus in the middle of London! Henry explained that even after all this time, the N word has a bad effect on him.

Another interesting slant to the Northern Irish take on prejudice is that Protestants and Catholics are becoming united in their shared hatred of the Eastern European immigrants that are now flooding into Ireland. Forget the peace process, it's a joint loathing of Poles ~ that one female shopkeeper inaccurately referred to as "black" ~ that is doing more to heal the Northern Irish disapora!

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

I am proud of you all. 40 posts in this thread and it's still very civilized. And I know it will remain so.