181 replies to this topic

[Alteran195]

Is there anyway of knowing what the sales for the Playmates BoP were like compared to the other alien ships? Does DST have access to that kind of information? Maybe they know something we don't.

[BadBunnyMike]

Well the Playmates BoP was one of the last ships released, so there was a decline in the Playmates line at that point so that might not be a good number to judge from anyway

[trekhunter1701]

The Playmates version wasn't that great sales wise. Toys r us had them for $6 and couldn't get rid of them. And of course I bought it at full price. Not sure if I'll get the DST version or not. I'll have to wait and see what real differences it has over what I've got. If it was a D7 Klingon Battle Cruiser I'll take a case!!

[Stormfury_Echo]

Those sales figures are more than 15 years old. I doubt that they're even relevant.

[DSTZach]

I'm still kind of bewildered that DST can't afford to make one of the major alien ships from Trek in the Romulan Warbird. This isn't some obscure ship that was seen onscreen for a single episode, this is one of the most popular and continually featured ships on the most popular modern Trek series. This isn't an alien ship that most people have barely heard of and that would appeal only to a tiny section of fandom, it's the Romulan Warbird for God's sake, a major alien race ship--and if DST can't find a way to make it at a profit, then what exactly can they afford to make with this line? 

 

It's starting to feel like once we get Reliant, Defiant, Voyager and maybe a K'Tinga, everything else we see will just be variants, because nothing else will make sense by DST's math.   

 

It's not that we can't afford to make it, it's that price is determined by cost, and cost is partially detemined by how many we make, and "profits" are based on how many we sell at that price. So if the price stays the same we need to sell a much higher number just to break even. If we raise the price, then we may only have to sell the normal number to break even, but would we sell the same number of this ship as we would the Enterprise, especially at a significantly higher price that even hardcore Trek fans might balk at? That is not easily predictable or quantifiable.

 

And saying that after those four ships we'll be repeating ourselves is unpredictable for number of reasons, not the least of which is that would be a few years from now at LEAST, and various things may change between now and then.

 

 

Hallmark has been making smaller ships and other sculpted Trek items (ornaments) for decades, often complete with lights and multiple voice bites, at a reasonable price point for collectors.  DST just has their way of doing things, and in the decision rooms their way is apparently the only way, hence where we are right now.  If they would innovate business/manufacturing models or take more risks they may have figured out by now a way to tap into the current Trek market that others (Eaglemoss, NECA/Wizkids, Hallmark, or even Funko) are continuing to cash in on.

 

Usually this is the part where someone suggests that their license only allows certain types or scales of items, but then I'm pretty sure Zach recently gave the impression that they can do whatever they want, so I don't know who to believe at this point.

 

What innovations are you suggesting we look into? Making smaller ships? Again, it's a cost/price/profit issue. Can we make a ship that's smaller? Sure. Would it fit into our collection, i.e., would the thousands of people who like our ships buy it (and not just 100 or so people)? I think for a lot of our customers, it would depend on various factors: How big is it? Would it have electronics? How much would it cost? Etc.

 

And if by risk, you mean spend all of our development budget on a product that we aren't sure people will buy, due to it being too expensive or outside of the box... we do that a lot. But we don't need to do that with Star Trek, at least not yet. Although some think we already are.

[ensignmelkor]

Well, I don't feel incredibly optimistic about getting anything else I'm interested in out of this line to be honest, but I will say that in the latest Ask DST, Chuck said "I guess time will tell" when asked when the Enterprise-C and the Jupiter II would be produced. That answer could have just been referring to the Jupiter II only; or it could have been referring to the Enterprise-C as well but in just a noncommittal way of placating the fans when in actuality the Enterprise-C isn't on DST's radar at all. But I choose to believe that it's being seriously considered, and the fact that it's the last ship needed to complete the line of Enterprises will hopefully tilt the scales in its favor. 

 

One thing to keep in mind with this line is the collector's mentality. Every ship produced for this line complements the others. I bought the Enterprise-A, a ship that has very little to differentiate it from the Wrath of Khan version I already own, because I want a complete set of Enterprises and I'm putting my faith in DST actually making an Enterprise-C at some point. If I wasn't buying these as a collector who wants a full set I would have definitely skipped both the Enterprise-A and the Enterprise-B. 

[Alteran195]

Hey Zach, I'm curious as to whether or not the sales for the Enterprise B, not including the Excelsior, were enough to justify that ship being made?

 

The only reason I ask is because the Enterprise B arguably had just as much, if not less screen time as the Enterprise C. So if the B alone could justify the cost of creating it, why would there be any risk where the C is concerned?

[1701D]

I think the ships are great at the size they are and changing the scale at this stage would not be something I'd be in on. I'd be keen to see a better level of sculpted detail on the ships we do get though as I feel that sometimes the sculpt is limited in favour of decals which are often misaligned. Windows for example would be awesome sculpted into the ship as they are with the NX01, A and E.

Two more things I'd like to see from the DST Trek line:

A licence for them to do product for ALL of Star Trek including the movies and next TV series.

&

More articulation in the select line and more episode/character specific dioramas. As much as Ghostbusters and Marvel get at the moment.

[Whirlygig]

I think the ships are great at the size they are and changing the scale at this stage would not be something I'd be in on.

 

Well, you said out of nowhere that making the NX-01 smaller while still having electronics wouldn't be feasible -- and offered it as some kind of excuse why DST wouldn't have considered that option. I was just pointing out that it is perfectly feasible with no ifs, ands, or buts about it, and in fact has been done before.

 

But further fueling my reply, the whole notion struck a particular nerve with me...  Over the years I have seen many fans, and probably even DST themselves, act like there is some kind of sophisticated supercomputer inside of the ships and that's why we should forgive them for everything from price, to not working the way we want (and which ought to seem completely obvious, e.g. always-on lights as an option).  Which obviously has always struck me as complete BS.  There are baby toys with more sophisticated (and user-pleasing) electronic features than we often get.

 

What innovations are you suggesting we look into? Making smaller ships? Again, it's a cost/price/profit issue. Can we make a ship that's smaller? Sure. Would it fit into our collection, i.e., would the thousands of people who like our ships buy it (and not just 100 or so people)? I think for a lot of our customers, it would depend on various factors: How big is it? Would it have electronics? How much would it cost? Etc.

 

And if by risk, you mean spend all of our development budget on a product that we aren't sure people will buy, due to it being too expensive or outside of the box... we do that a lot. But we don't need to do that with Star Trek, at least not yet. Although some think we already are.

 

Those are all very good questions, and maybe if the company spent even more time exploring questions like that rather than what appears to me as maintaining the status quo they could perhaps have found more money in this license in the present market.  Of course you will beg to differ, but it can be hard for any company to see the forest from the trees.  I would suggest they can find someone far more qualified than me (perhaps even already amongst their ranks) to help answer these questions.  I'm just acting as that voice saying, hey, are you *sure* the sky is blue?

 

And I'm not talking about risks on as specific a level as making smaller ships.  Any kind of risk.  Risks everywhere from A-Z in the entire business process that could perhaps even expand to other licenses.  From manufacturing, to marketing, to distribution, to design, and so on.

 

When, for one example, the question is, why don't you sell subscriptions, you have a nice answer for that.  Along the lines of, it's not what you do.  But when the question is, why isn't that what you do?  That's the question there is no good answer to, besides "we don't think it will work/we're not interested/we can't invest the capital"...and yet it is working right now for others.  Think outside of the box.  Get bigger.  Why not?  Isn't that the typical entrepreneurial goal?

 

It makes little difference to me who is making the Trek products I'm buying, as long as they are of high quality, high desirability, and within my price range.  I'm not a DST stake holder in any way.  So I don't really care if you agree with me or not or even if anything changes.  From my vantage point, the simple fact is that you seem to be losing ground, or if not then there is certainly at least more ground to be gained, and if you figure out how then I might end up there to be part of it again.

[djc242]

DSTZach, it's really good of you to engage with folks here and answer comments.  I think that makes us feel a little connected to a part of the source of some of the best Trek toys produced.

 

We all have big ideas about what we'd like to see or what we think DST could be doing.  I bet less than 1% here are actually qualified to really speak with some authority.     Trek fans are passionate and with all the episodes and films there's a lot to be passionate about.  DST and AA have given us some amazing treatments of great figures, ships, and role-play items.  I think we just assume that we deserve our other favorites that haven't been made yet.

 

This board is great for registering what we like/dislike and what we'd like to see next.  I don't think that badgering Zach with the same criticism over and over will end up making anyone happy.  We can quibble over the decision to produce a Romulan Bird of Prey until we're Andorian in the face but it is the next new ship to be released.

 

Just wanted to interject that.

[ensignmelkor]

DSTZach, it's really good of you to engage with folks here and answer comments.  I think that makes us feel a little connected to a part of the source of some of the best Trek toys produced.

 

We all have big ideas about what we'd like to see or what we think DST could be doing.  I bet less than 1% here are actually qualified to really speak with some authority.     Trek fans are passionate and with all the episodes and films there's a lot to be passionate about.  DST and AA have given us some amazing treatments of great figures, ships, and role-play items.  I think we just assume that we deserve our other favorites that haven't been made yet.

 

This board is great for registering what we like/dislike and what we'd like to see next.  I don't think that badgering Zach with the same criticism over and over will end up making anyone happy.  We can quibble over the decision to produce a Romulan Bird of Prey until we're Andorian in the face but it is the next new ship to be released.

 

Just wanted to interject that.

 

Everything comes down to sales in the end. I won't buy the Romulan BoP, but I'm only one person. If the BoP does significantly worse than whatever sales target DST is projecting, it will be interesting to see how DST reacts to that. On the other hand maybe it will do well, who knows? Though I certainly don't see many options for producing variants of it.

[Whirlygig]

I don't think that badgering Zach with the same criticism over and over will end up making anyone happy.

 

There are those who often seem worried that Zach, in his role of PR representative, will go away if he has to read dissenting opinions.  He's been arguing with me (and others) for years now and keeps coming back.  I think that shows he is capable of not taking it personally or getting out of whack over it, as well he should be in that role.

 

If you are addressing me directly, then making a statement, being questioned to clarify, and subsequently clarifying is not exactly the definition of badgering as I've come to understand it.  Don't worry, I won't go on forever.  I believe I made all the clarifications necessary to my points in that last post.

[1701D]

Whirlygig, we all see your point but DST aren't changing the size of their ships. Continuing to argue your point to Zach wont make DST change their minds about it. Could they do their ships smaller? Yeah I guess they could! But why would they I think is what I was trying to get at. It Turns out that I was totally wrong in saying that the electronics had something to do with the size but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't doing ships in a smaller scale.

Maybe if they launched a new line? A smaller scale line without sounds and no light features on the ship but a base that when the ship is attached to, lit up to display the ship? Maybe but then what would that offer the fans that Eaglemoss haven't been offering?

Seems as though DST have a decent scale here and that the Romulan Warbird is a bit of a tricky one to do from what Zach has said. The only thing I can think of is for DST to make that ship smaller than it should be in comparison to the Enterprise D just as playmates did with theirs.

[Whirlygig]

I believe I made all the clarifications necessary to my points in that last post.

 

I stand corrected.  One last attempt:

 

Whirlygig, we all see your point but DST aren't changing the size of their ships.

 

I have obviously been unclear if people think I care whether they change the size of ships or not, or am trying to convince them to.  The "size question" was a springboard, from something you and others had said into my actual, more general statement.  Which is maybe they should start to consider any innovative idea, including that one (which I was not the one to propose in the first place).

 

And that's that.  Thank you, have a nice day.

[Alteran195]

DST should start selling separate stands for their role play items, or separate bases that can keep their lights on ships powered at all times by being plugged into an outlet. 

 

Bam innovation. 

 

I'd buy them, and I'm sure others would. 

[ensignmelkor]

The problem with the Warbird for me is that if it isn't at least as big as the Enterprise-D I really wouldn't be interested. I don't need it to be screen accurate and actually be larger than the Enterprise-D, but if they make it smaller I wouldn't purchase it. For $100 + it needs to look menacing on the shelf and have some size to it.

 

I think DST would like to make the Warbird, but are unwilling to take the financial risk. I already suggested not including lights and sounds in order to make the Warbird cheaper to produce, but that idea looks like it was shot down. So I'm pretty sure the only alien ship we'll be getting from here on in is a K'Tinga--and that's only if we're lucky, and it may still take years. 

[Alex]

The Playmates version wasn't that great sales wise. Toys r us had them for $6 and couldn't get rid of them. And of course I bought it at full price. Not sure if I'll get the DST version or not. I'll have to wait and see what real differences it has over what I've got. If it was a D7 Klingon Battle Cruiser I'll take a case!!

As Stormfury_echo pointed out, any sales data we have from the Playmates line is largely irrelevant given its age if nothing else. Besides, they might have been $6 in your area and TRU might not have been able to get rid of them, but where I live it was an entirely different story. Playmates screwed the pooch on the distribution of their Klingon BoP, (first batch had a design flaw/couldn't fit the battery compartment or something, and that caused the ship to be delayed so that it no longer coincided with the release of the Generations movie, which didn't do it any favors when it was frequently mistaken for outdated GEN merchandise,) and when it finally got out the door, some places had more than they knew what to do with, and others had none of them. When I finally did find one around here, it wasn't at the stores I usually bought Playmates Trek merchandise at, but at TRU, and it was right after they'd unloaded a truck and gotten exactly two of them in stock. I cannot tell you how often I would check to see if there were any "cloaked" behind other merchandise only to find nothing either. The ship was just scarce around here, and that was a result of Playmates' inefficent distribution which is why your TRU couldn't give them away and mine didn't have enough to meet basic demand.

 

Seems as though DST have a decent scale here and that the Romulan Warbird is a bit of a tricky one to do from what Zach has said. The only thing I can think of is for DST to make that ship smaller than it should be in comparison to the Enterprise D just as playmates did with theirs.

I honestly can't see DST doing the D'deridex–class Warbird without having it out of scale with the Enterprise–D. As long as it's sized comparably to the "D" though, (maybe a tad bit longer than the Playmates version was in relation to the Playmates "D,") I'm going to be incredibly happy with it. (The filming model was smaller than the filming model of the "D" too, so I can go with it, even though the ship is supposed to be significantly larger than the "D.") If DST were to try and make the Warbird larger than the "D" even in a semiscale fashion I admit that I'd be expecting to pay in the ballpark of $150.

 

Actually let's tackle the question of cost from a slightly different angle for a moment. If DST were to release a D'deridex–class Warbird sized comparably to the Enterprise–D, would everyone here be willing to pay the same price that the Enterprise–D currently goes for, which I believe is about $100 dollars? For a ship that size and that iconic, I'd be on–board at that price point, especially given DST's release schedule as it'd give me plenty of time to set the $100 aside for my purchase. More importantly though, if it would drive down the overall cost per ship, would everyone here be willing to put some money toward variants to make the D'deridex happen? I wouldn't mind having a "Commander Seala" version, a "Tomulak" version from "All Good Things...," (that would actually be a huge incentive to double–dip since it would go with my AGT-D,) and a DS9 variant of some sort from the Dominion War. The only changes that DST would have to make from what I understand would be the sound chips, so theoretically this would allow them to reuse the tooling without changing any of the plastic. As much as I'd love to see fully and partially cloaked variants like those of the Klingon BoP, those would necessitate changes in the plastic, which I would think would affect production costs when buying in bulk.

 

 

DST should start selling separate stands for their role play items, or separate bases that can keep their lights on ships powered at all times by being plugged into an outlet. 

 

Bam innovation. 

 

I'd buy them, and I'm sure others would. 

Alteran195, I can assure you that I would purchase such stands in a heartbeat. Heck, change the last few rice–bulbs in the Enterprise–E over to LEDs and add a lights–on feature, and I would buy the kind of base you're describing for that ship in a heartbeat.

 

The problem with the Warbird for me is that if it isn't at least as big as the Enterprise-D I really wouldn't be interested. I don't need it to be screen accurate and actually be larger than the Enterprise-D, but if they make it smaller I wouldn't purchase it. For $100 + it needs to look menacing on the shelf and have some size to it.

 

I think DST would like to make the Warbird, but are unwilling to take the financial risk. I already suggested not including lights and sounds in order to make the Warbird cheaper to produce, but that idea looks like it was shot down. So I'm pretty sure the only alien ship we'll be getting from here on in is a K'Tinga--and that's only if we're lucky, and it may still take years. 

I honestly think the Warbird can look menacing even if it's the same size as the "D," or even just a tad smaller. It would still have plenty of size to it by virtue of the double–wings, and would still seem menacing if it looked like it could match the "D" pound for pound, even if it wasn't actually larger. I'm not expecting screen–accuracy either, but if it's going to be larger than the "D," I'm expecting a $150 dollar price tag rather than a $100 dollar price tag. I'll pay it if that's what it's going to cost, but the question is whether or not everyone else will. Not including lights and sounds is a non–starter though for ships that aren't "fully cloaked," (in which case not having lights and sounds obviously makes sense,) as DST's starship line is arguably an "electronic starship" line, where electronics are part of the point to the line. I know there's risk involved with this ship, but I would love to know what DST would be asking as the MSRP that makes them hesitant to take a financial risk on it.

 

As for other alien ships, whose to say that the K'Tinga is the only one that DST would take a risk on? The way I understand it, the problem isn't the demand, but the demand in relation to the cost of tooling for some of the larger alien ships like the Warbird. The Klingon Vor'cha–class attack cruiser doesn't have the double–wing issue and is sized comparably to a Federation ship, making it a reasonable option for DST. The Negh'var–class could probably be pulled off as well if parts from the Vor'cha–class could be repurposed for it the same way the standard "D" and AGT–D shared parts. If the argument against the Vor'cha–class is that DST will have released three Klingon ships and only one Romulan ship, and that there are other alien ships out there worth doing as well, I see no reason why a Ferengi Maurauder should be too difficult to pull off at a price–point that people would be willing to pay. It's not too large, it doesn't look like it would require a lot of complex tooling, (it might actually be simpler than some Federation ships,) and it could have sound chips that make it suitable for use with the Enterprise–D or with something from DS9. Also, whose to say that we couldn't get a Cardassian Galore–class warship to go with a U.S.S. Defiant once DST starts releasing ships from DS9? Again, the Galore–class appeared in TNG as well, so it's perfectly suitable for variants. Playmates had plans for a Galore–class ship, but they dropped them when their line started to tank, which is a shame because the mock–up they built looked pretty cool, and I definitely would have bought the finished ship. Likewise, if we're looking for another Romulan ship, why not the Valdore–class Warbird from NEM that lacks the double–wing design of the D'deridex and is more in line with the Klingon BoP in terms of shape, and without any tooling headaches like retractable wings or landing gear? It'd go perfectly with the Enterprise–E, and would be a lot less challenging than the D'deridex–class. I could go on and point to other ships like the Jem'Hadar bug as well, but my point is that even if DST doesn't want to take a risk on the D'deridex–class, it doesn't mean that the K'Tinga or the Borg Cube are the last alien ships they'd consider. Granted, I'd like a D'deridex–class Warbird as much as everyone else, but there are other alien ships from TNG–VOY that I'm very interested in as well, and that I'd happily pick up.

 

Given that our next new ship is going to be the TOS Romulan BoP, I'd really like to see DST find a way to work the Enterprise–C into their plans for an upcoming ship in the near future. Hallmark just put an Enterprise–C ornament out this year, (although strangely enough, they've never released the Enterprise–B,) so it's not like people don't know what it is or have an interest in it. (While the TWOK diorama outsold every other Trek ornament Hallmark put out this year, that's kind of expected given the scene involved and Mr. Nimoy's untimely passing making a Spock ornmanent even more saught after than usual. I actually had a huge scare when mine finally came in and was defective, but was able to secure a replacement yesterday.) While an ornament obviously isn't quite the same as one of DST's ships, it's still worth a decent chunk of cash, and still shows that there's demand for the Enterprise–C. Heck, it's the last ship DST needs to finish off their Prime Universe Enterprises, and that alone has pushed it into a high priority on the list of ships that I'd like to see DST release. (It managed to do something I didn't think possible too, which was to bump U.S.S. Voyager from the top spot of my wish list. Granted, the second I get the "C," Voyager will regain that spot.)

[Razorgeist]

 

More importantly though, if it would drive down the overall cost per ship, would everyone here be willing to put some money toward variants to make the D'deridex happen? I wouldn't mind having a "Commander Seala" version, a "Tomulak" version from "All Good Things...," (that would actually be a huge incentive to double–dip since it would go with my AGT-D,) and a DS9 variant of some sort from the Dominion War. The only changes that DST would have to make from what I understand would be the sound chips, so theoretically this would allow them to reuse the tooling without changing any of the plastic.

 

 

I would definetly buy a couple variants of the warbird.  And i would be willing to buy it at the $150 price point.  Its one of my favorite alien ships.  Great post Alex!

[ensignmelkor]

I guess some people might be willing to buy the same Warbird multiple times just for different voice chips, but I doubt DST would be able to sell very many "variants" of that type. The only real variants possible with the Warbird that might actually sell in sufficient numbers are cloaked and maybe battle-damaged. I would definitely be willing to buy both a regular and a cloaked Warbird, as the cloaking device is a classic aspect of Romulan ships and something we all associate with them, even more than with the Klingons. So I would definitely be down for two Warbirds in total. as for how much it would cost DST to produce a cloaked variant--well, at the end of the day, you have to spend money to make money. 

 

(I have to admit though, that a Warbird with "Face of the Enemy" Deanna Troi voice clips might just get me to open up my wallet.)

[DSTZach]

Two more things I'd like to see from the DST Trek line:

A licence for them to do product for ALL of Star Trek including the movies and next TV series.

&

More articulation in the select line and more episode/character specific dioramas. As much as Ghostbusters and Marvel get at the moment.

 

The first is not in our power.

The second is two things. We did articulated figures for years, they are all out there. We're doing the dioramas now, and I think they're looking good and doing well.