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DS9 in HD


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#21 djc242

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 02:41 AM

Wow, I could also! That's really nice! Always wanted to see more of that design.

#22 s8film40

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:12 AM

I think it may happen one day, but I think many here just don't realize the cost associated. Syndication and Netflix aren't going to make enough to cover the cost of 7 seasons of VFX work rescanning and editing.

#23 Nigel

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:20 AM

Couldn't they just keep the CGI stuff in SD and then remaster just the live footage in HD like they did with the Enterprise blu-rays?



#24 s8film40

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 08:49 PM

Couldn't they just keep the CGI stuff in SD and then remaster just the live footage in HD like they did with the Enterprise blu-rays?

That would be very distracting. Someone pulls out a phaser and as they fire it everything turns SD then suddenly back to HD when it's done.

#25 1701D

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 05:24 AM

I think DS9 is a show that is screaming for a full restoration and in my opinion, I think it would be awesome to do a tempered George Lucas on it.

Bring back the visual effects guys who worked on it, maybe some of the fans who've shown how awesome their stuff is on the internet and recreate some CGI, add new elements into the show that are appropriate and that enhance the viewer experience.

#26 Alteran195

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 06:50 PM

While not DS9, I didn’t really think this justified a new thread but wanted to share it:
https://youtu.be/5JTzDwvJ7Js

#27 Jay K

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 12:49 AM

Gorgeous.



#28 djc242

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 03:29 PM

Check out the fan made DS9 Season 4 HD trailer:



#29 Alteran195

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 04:35 PM

That was an amazing trailer.

#30 Jay K

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 02:47 AM

Those guys are incredible. Being absolutely honest, I know the CG isn't as good as what we've seen with Discovery for example, but I would honestly love for those two (using Tobias Richter's models) to remake the effects shots for any DS9 remastering. I can't put my finger on it, but they just 'get' it. :D



#31 Alex

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:46 PM

I think it may happen one day, but I think many here just don't realize the cost associated. Syndication and Netflix aren't going to make enough to cover the cost of 7 seasons of VFX work rescanning and editing.

Initially no, but remastering is a long–term investment, and I honestly think that over time they'd be able to easily offset the costs. They could also do what they used to do with Trek as a whole, and go for awards with the remastering so that even if remastering doesn't look great financially, they can claim "public relations" when they point to the trophy case full of awards Trek brings in, which generally appeases the people signing the checks for something with a lower than usual return. DS9 did a lot of this during its initial run anyway, so it wouldn't hurt to try it again.

 

Also, the rescanning isn't that expensive, and if they stuck to in–house equipment, CBS could scan all seven seasons in 4K without spending a dime more than they'd spend to scan in HD, (any post house worth their salt can do a 4K scan for the price of an HD scan, and a good studio will negotiate for just that,) and that makes it very easy to go to 4K Blu–Ray eventually as well by simply rerendering the FX sequences in UHD sometime down the line.

 

Actually recreating the FX sequences is where the costs are, and now that original CG assets have been recovered, they might even be lower than before, even if most of the models need a ton of work to be useful in HD. Oh, and CBS could probably save some money if they used something like DaVinci Resolve instead of Autodesk Smoke as a way to integrate editing, FX, and color grading. I totally understand why they used Smoke for TNG, but DaVinci has caught up and is eating its lunch now.

 

I also think that those pesky Blu–Ray sales might not be nearly as bad as they were for TNG now that people actually own Blu–Ray players, especially if CBS asks for a sane amount of money per set. Heck, even if they went with an overpriced $70 at launch instead of an overpriced $100+ they'd probably have an easier time moving BDs of DS9 than they did of TNG.

 

Those guys are incredible. Being absolutely honest, I know the CG isn't as good as what we've seen with Discovery for example, but I would honestly love for those two (using Tobias Richter's models) to remake the effects shots for any DS9 remastering. I can't put my finger on it, but they just 'get' it. :D

This is the other thing that makes no sense, CBS has hired Richter plenty of times in the past, and Richter already has models built for DS9. CBS could basically buy finished models, request some slight alterations if need be, and probably get Richter to play ball for a fraction of what he'd ask for if he had to build a new model from scratch. Why not put the fans in the industry to work on this and then make that a selling point? It really seems like a no–brainer, especially when there are clearly fans who want DS9 in HD already creating HD quality fan art.



#32 Alex

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 03:23 AM

So I know I'm the last person to post in this thread, but after seeing something earlier about a fan–made five minute teaser of an unoffical remaster that was done using DVD source material and AI to upconvert to pseudo–HD, I had some thoughts on this again. First, you should totally find the video on YouTube and take a look at it. It's nowhere near as good as what you'd get from a proper film rescanning, but it's still way better than just scaling a normal standard definition source to screens that are of increasingly larger resolution.

 

Second, this got me thinking about what a proper remastering would cost again, and I think we're getting closer to it being possible.

  • Film scanning is "cheap" if all things are relative; it's literally done for any movie still shot on film, and is the least expensive part of the process
  • We've located at least half if not all of the CGI models, and they hold up fairly well in HD as they were designed too; there are some areas that need a little bit of polish, but it's still way simpler than building a new model, and with a few tiny adjustments, it would be possible to literally hit "render" and get the HD output we need with models that show off far more detail than previously seen
  • The real headache would be redoing the VFX work, and that might not be as bad as it was even two years ago

Basically, TNG–R was done with a program called Autodesk Smoke. Smoke is basically an editing tool that costs $10,000 per user, and it was picked because it allows you to quickly switch from editing to FX work. There's just one catch: Other editing software has really caught up in this department. DaVinci Resolve Studio goes for roughly $300, and while no sane person would have used it for editing when TNG–R was being remastered, it's increasingly becoming ever more popular for that very purpose. Its original function was color correction/color grading, and as such, it allows for techniques such as digital makeup and other FX work that could benefit Trek. Additionally, Fusion, its VFX counterpart, is now bundled with Resolve in a stripped down form, effectively making it so that at least some FX work no longer requires a separate program. (Even if it did though, the total is about $600 vs. $10,000 for software.) Other programs have made similar strides; while Adobe After Effects isn't nearly as powerful as Fusion, much less Smoke, it's good enough that it would probably suffice now, although I could understanding wanting something a bit more specialized.

 

The AI aspect of what the fan did got me thinking though; AI upscaling might not be the solution, but maybe some form of AI plugin for DaVinci Resolve Studio to handle the color correction, and even to sort through and organize the rescanned film could be a way to cut down on man hours that would drive up the cost. Heck, you might even be able to use AI and machine learning to identify which scenes would need advanced FX work, and to then tackle them accordingly. I don't think AI is the solution to getting DS9–R, but I do think it could be part of it, along with strong sales of the DS9 documentary that Shout! Factory managed to pick up under their Shout! Studios banner, and CBS finally realizing this is worth their money with enough prodding.

 

Also, while I hate to admit this simply because I'd like the shows to be remastered in order, it may actually make sense to remaster VGR first. Simply put, while VGR has more VFX work to contend with, it's slightly shorter, apparently the most popular series on Netflix in terms of the top ten most viewed episodes, and above all else, season one is only 15 episodes rather than the 26 of all subsequent seasons. In effect, you could splurge on season one, debut it on CBSAA first, correct whatever needs to be corrected for a Blu–Ray release, and then basically demand fans buy it if they want to see season two or DS9, knowing that people would scoop it up if that's what it took to get DS9. If things go sideways, you've only burned through a budget to remaster 15 episodes, and if they go well, the next 26 shouldn't be as tough to swallow as starting with something like 24 episodes of DS9's first season. (And just to be clear, I absolutely want VGR–R, probably even more than DS9–R, but I want to see the shows remastered in the order they were released.)

 

The bottom line is the old "we don't have the CGI models" excuse no longer holds up, and the technology has improved enough that CBS really ought to take a second look at this. It's not 2012 anymore, I think we could do this now if fans would make a push for it.






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