1901 replies to this topic

[s8film40]

 
 
I'm not seeing smoke from the show nearly as much as I'm seeing an unprecedented amount of hot air coming from fans. Maybe I'm just being optimistic.
 

Really?! The showrunner who is also a long time Trek veteran and fan getting fired, those close to the production like the Okuda's saying this is a problem, the actors themeselves coming out and saying Trek fans are going to have issues with the show, a trailer that clearly is throwing canon out the window, and everything else, that's just hot air. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being optimistic, but blindly ignoring all of this isn't optimism it's ignorance. I would love to be blissfully ignorant and optimistic and get excited for this series, but at some point you have to temper those expectations and take off the rose colored Trekkie glasses. Hope for the best prepare for the worst.

[1701D]

For example? And who set these parameters?

Gene Roddenberry. Then Rick Berman honoured his legacy by preserving and upholding Roddenberry's vision - in some cases to the franchises detriment bu I guess the best way to describe the parameters I speak of is by using an example; Rogue One.

So Rogue One was about a specific time in the Star Wars universe. The nature of that movie meant that they had to work within the established parameters set out by George Lucas in 1977's Star Wars. To go too far outside those parameters would of meant certain disaster for the production - to design new suits for storm troopers would of been silly. Instead they invented new storm trooper types and blended them in with the original storm trooper look. The new ships they designed were new and original but fit within the established parameters of the era in which Rogue One took place. Star destroyers looked like star destroyers, x wings looked like x wings and the Death Star looked like the Death Star and while there were a lot of new things to take delight in whilst watching Rogue One, none of it felt out of place. The movie succeeded in telling a gripping story - relevant to our own world as it was fitting with the Star Wars saga. Moreover though, as well as convincing the audience that this was indeed a movie set in a very specific time, Rogue One was to Star Wars, what Discovery should of been to Star Trek - you want to do future tech and present new and futuristic ideas, move the story beyond Nemesis and Voyager, don't keep confusing an already convoluted timeline with yet another reimagining - fans and audiences will completely switch off.

Actually I'd insist on examining the patient BEFORE making a diagnosis. 
 
I don't want or expect all fans to be the same except when it comes to embracing the optimism of the franchise. Trek was always very forward-thinking. Maybe more fans are relating to the cynicism of Dr. McCoy these days but I always preferred to look ahead with hope rather than dread.
 
And Trek's been ret-conning itself since the first season when they recycled "The Cage" and changed Kirk's middle initial from R to T later in the series. It wasn't sacred then either. We got over it.
 
Are you not looking forward to the rumored Khan series from Nick Meyer?
 
Unless it's about time travel, in which case you get fan favorite episodes like "City on the Edge of Forever" or "Trials and Tribble-ations" or popular movies like The Voyage Home and First Contact. 

An examination lasting 12 years found massive blunt forced trauma to th the victim. Two doctors; a Dr Paramount and a Dr CBS had two competing ideas on what to do with the patient. The result of this was the patients arse didn't know what its elbow was doing.

The time travel stories you have picked out are prime examples of why Discovery is just another reboot and just another reason why it won't catch on - when a future ship went back to a storied piece of Star Treks past, they were respectful of the period of time they went back to. If DS9's producers had decided to do Trials and Tribulations by reinventing the TOS aesthetic - because it looked too cardboard for 90's TV audiences - that show would of been dead before the helmsman hit warp speed. Do you see where I'm going with this?

As for he Nick Meyer Khan prequel - look I have no problem with prequels - Rogue One was done brilliantly and if Nick Meyer can do that with a Khan mini series then spank my fanny and call be Judy, I'm there, but do I think that a Khan mini series is the way forward? No because Star Trek is Star Trek when it's boldly going not back In time, but forward - regardless of any episodes that may include time travel - Star Trek's triumphant return to our Tv screens after 12 years should be a show that is progressive and pioneering the way for others to follow it.

[1701D]

And finally - just because I say this and believe it, doesn't mean I won't watch Star Trek: Discovery and find something to appreciate and enjoy. The sad thing is, is that under its current owners, I don't think Star Trek can do much better than yet another bland and generic reimagining/reboot etc... there are zero new ideas in Hollywood and no one called Roddenberry to fight for something special.

[Daysleeper]

Should have, not should of...

[Alteran195]

With the premiere pretty much a month away, I think we should take a break from hating on Discovery, and figure out how we want to handle the series on the forum. 

 

I think it's fairly safe to say that even if you don't like what you've seen, pretty much everyone here will at least be watching the pilot when it airs on normal TV in the US, and Netflix everywhere else. (How is the pilot being aired in Canada?)

 

I don't really feel this thread should be where we discuss episodes and what not, and that in the very least we should have a new thread made for that.

 

The ideal scenario in my mind would be making a whole new forum for Discovery, with individual threads for each episode for discussion, theories and such. But without an admin or moderator, I don't see that happening. 

 

Should we have a thread for just the pilot, and another for every other episode, or just one thread for all episode discussions? 

 

Should spoilers be fair game in an episode discussion thread, with spoilers flagged in the thread title, or should we spoiler tag every post? The former sounds like a better option to me. 

 

What are your guys thoughts?

 

I think it's fairly safe to say that even if you don't like what you've seen, pretty much everyone here will at least be watching the pilot when it airs on normal TV in the US, and Netflix everywhere else. (How is the pilot being aired in Canada?)

[MisterPL]

Really?! The showrunner who is also a long time Trek veteran and fan getting fired, those close to the production like the Okuda's saying this is a problem, the actors themeselves coming out and saying Trek fans are going to have issues with the show, a trailer that clearly is throwing canon out the window, and everything else, that's just hot air. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being optimistic, but blindly ignoring all of this isn't optimism it's ignorance. I would love to be blissfully ignorant and optimistic and get excited for this series, but at some point you have to temper those expectations and take off the rose colored Trekkie glasses. Hope for the best prepare for the worst.

 
I agree but as I said, while I am seeing smoke around the show I'm seeing MUCH more hot air from naysayers. To use another expression, I believe detractors are making mountains out of mole hills.
 
Let's face it, "coming out and saying Trek fans are going to have issues with the show" isn't saying a whole lot when it comes to this fandom. I never thought I'd see self-described Trekkies complain about the inclusion of LGBTQ characters but I still believe it's only coming from a vocal minority.

 

Everything else – from the uniforms and ship designs to the makeup and story direction – is purely subjective and currently out of context. There was a time when fans used to justify these changes rather than tear them apart before anyone else.

[MisterPL]

Funny you should bring us Star Wars. Just like George Lucas couldn't keep from puttering with his creation, Gene Roddenberry is the same guy who started changing the aesthetics of Star Trek in the first place. Something tells me he'd be fine with the creative liberties designers are taking with Discovery.

 

And there's a big difference between a film that takes place during the opening scroll of another visually ground-breaking film and a TV series that's set ten years before a show created 50 years prior that had little money for pretty things. While it might be a fun project as a film film, I can't see any executive green-lighting a series that looks like it was produced on a shoestring budget in the 60s unless it's a parody.  Even Fox's Orville isn't going that far.

 

The time travel stories you have picked out are prime examples of why Discovery is just another reboot and just another reason why it won't catch on - when a future ship went back to a storied piece of Star Treks past, they were respectful of the period of time they went back to. If DS9's producers had decided to do Trials and Tribulations by reinventing the TOS aesthetic - because it looked too cardboard for 90's TV audiences - that show would of been dead before the helmsman hit warp speed. Do you see where I'm going with this?

As for he Nick Meyer Khan prequel - look I have no problem with prequels - Rogue One was done brilliantly and if Nick Meyer can do that with a Khan mini series then spank my fanny and call be Judy, I'm there, but do I think that a Khan mini series is the way forward? No because Star Trek is Star Trek when it's boldly going not back In time, but forward - regardless of any episodes that may include time travel - Star Trek's triumphant return to our Tv screens after 12 years should be a show that is progressive and pioneering the way for others to follow it.

 

My point about time travel was that even the most popular Trek stories don't go forward in time, they go backward. A tale about the origins of Khan could be very interesting because, since we've now lived through that future, we know what the 1980's and 90's looked like. That could be used to the advantage of showrunners to keep costs down but it's not hard to imagine fans complaining about how it looks or the fact that it's another icky prequel.

 

And isn't it strange that in The Voyage Home, set in 1986, there was absolutely no mention of Khan, a man who in just seven years would rule one quarter of Earth? Plot hole or egregious canonical error?! You decide!

[s8film40]

 
I agree but as I said, while I am seeing smoke around the show I'm seeing MUCH more hot air from naysayers. To use another expression, I believe detractors are making mountains out of mole hills.
 
Let's face it, "coming out and saying Trek fans are going to have issues with the show" isn't saying a whole lot when it comes to this fandom. I never thought I'd see self-described Trekkies complain about the inclusion of LGBTQ characters but I still believe it's only coming from a vocal minority.

 

Everything else – from the uniforms and ship designs to the makeup and story direction – is purely subjective and currently out of context. There was a time when fans used to justify these changes rather than tear them apart before anyone else.

Well I can agree with that. I think for me personally everything I say comes with what should be an understood stipulation of we ultimately still have to wait and see the show to truly judge it. 90% of what I've seen I've had issues with. I'm hopeful that the show will be good and I will enjoy it, but I'm not setting myself up for disappointment. 

 

I used the analogy of Ghostbuster 2016 a while back and I think it mirrors this situation somewhat. Much of the criticism of the early fan complaints was very much the same. We were told the fans are making a big deal of nothing, fans need to be more open minded and optimistic and if you don't support the movie you're not a real fan. In the end what was supposedly also only a small molehill turned into a total box office failure costing the studio millions in loses and crippled that franchise probably for the foreseeable future. So after seeing 3 movies come out and being totally disappointments and watching another franchise go through a failure of a reboot and harm the franchise I hope you can at least understand why I'm worried about this even if you don't agree. 

[MisterPL]

Unlike GhostbustHers, we get to check it out on CBS for free (assuming everyone gets CBS like so many fans insist they do). I expect All Access subscriptions to spike after that first airing. How much will decide on how well it's received.

 

My biggest problem with the look of the show is the uniforms. However, they do look like a midway point between the jumpsuits from ENT and the away team suits seen in "The Cage."

 

The Discovery itself only troubled me because it was based on a design for TMP. I could accept it as an advanced prototype but I'd want to see an NX on the hull. To me it looks like the saucer section separates the the aft section can have the silhouette of a Klingon ship. That's a very specific use but this seems to be a very specific tale.

 

My biggest issue with the casting is that Rainn Wilson is too old to play Mudd but Roger Carmel looked older so we'll see.

 

I've no problem with the Klingons having other races, especially since there's so much colonization as well as the Vulcan/Romulan precedent.

 

As a fan of Pushing Daisies and Hannibal, I was looking forward to Fuller's take on Trek and from what I'ver read this will still have a lot of his influence though not as much as if he'd remained. There seem to be plenty of other Trekkies behind the scenes and we know from reading message boards and comments sections that too many can spoil the broth since we can't seem to agree on much these days.

 

So on September 24th, we riot! Until then... optimism! 

[Gothneo]

If you buy a discovery pin... you get an all access rebate!

[1701D]

My problems with Discovery are:

1) it doesn't look like it's set in the period it's based
2) the uniforms - dull, dark, bland, where's the colour?
3) the Shenzhou and Klingon ships - they look too advanced for the time
4) lens flare - why?
5) set design - again it looks too advanced for the period it is set
6) too much of a Kelvin Timeline influence
7) the Klingons - again they don't connect to any point in Trek
8) TVMA: whatever has pushed it into this rating has me worried - Wile Trek is cerebral and 'grown up' - it was optimistic and family friendly - to loose that would be such a shame.

The good points:

1) the cast and crew - they seem lovely and really passionate about Star Trek
2) the discovery - whilst I don't really like the holes in the saucer, it is at least an iconic design, love it or hate it.
3) the props - they look superb; the phasers, communicators and tricorders look brilliant and such a perfect blend of TOS and contemporary design
4) the Klingons - so this is also on my cons list but I do like the design, it's really intricate so if they explain that these are different Klingons from the ones in TOS then cool!
5) the CGI - it looks great!

[Jay K]

Alteran, make a new thread in the week before it starts (this was the announcement thread, make a fresh one for the actual thing). T'is my opinion.

[VulcanFanatic]

If you buy a discovery pin... you get an all access rebate!

So spend 30 bucks on a $5 pin and get a rebate of $25 on a streaming service I don't care about.Regardless which hand holds the money it's still paying for a service that the vast majority of people I see post on Star Trek discovery stories say they have no interest in ever subscribing to.

[Gothneo]

Spin it how you like I guess. a more optimistic view would be your subscribing and getting a pin you'll enjoy. Its a promotion... and I'm sure its won't be the only one. But it is a time honored way to get people who might be on the fence to ante in!

 

Its obvious that your not ever going to be their customer VF... you don't like their service and you don't like any of their product... maybe you should set up a twitter account and get the modern equivalent of a letter writing campaign going!

[s8film40]

I actually really like the subscription model. It gives the fans a little more control and the studio a little more incentive to please the fans. Assuming they came out with a good series and decided to cancel it, there wouldn't be a letter writing campaign, but rather a large number of fans threatening to cancel their subscription. Unfortunately the product seems to be the bigger issue. Of course perhaps if they don't see a good number of fans not signing up they'll quickly realize they went the wrong direction and maybe just maybe come up with a new series that delivers what we want.

[MisterPL]

If you buy a discovery pin... you get an all access rebate!

 

I'd be more interested if it was the delta badge. And while I'm sure that pin design was inspired by NASA patches, I'd rather it BE an embroidered patch minus the CBS All Access logo.

[MisterPL]

8) TVMA: whatever has pushed it into this rating has me worried - Wile Trek is cerebral and 'grown up' - it was optimistic and family friendly - to loose that would be such a shame.

 

That rating might be more a sign of the times. Beetlejuice drops an F-bomb but his film got a PG rating from the MPAA back in 1988. We've gotten a bit more... sensitive lately.

[Alteran195]

 
I'd be more interested if it was the delta badge. And while I'm sure that pin design was inspired by NASA patches, I'd rather it BE an embroidered patch minus the CBS All Access logo.

QMx has all 4 Discovery badges for sale:
https://qmxonline.com

[s8film40]

They really do seem to be clueless in marketing this thing. They're doing their free month promotion ending just in time so it won't hook anyone into the series. I think if they wanted to do a promo item and came up with something that would be something existing fans wanted even if they didn't like the idea of Discovery it would help to get those on the fence to give it a chance.

[1701D]

They really do seem to be clueless in marketing this thing. They're doing their free month promotion ending just in time so it won't hook anyone into the series. I think if they wanted to do a promo item and came up with something that would be something existing fans wanted even if they didn't like the idea of Discovery it would help to get those on the fence to give it a chance.

 

Its because CBS know or are hedging their bets that fans will sign up regardless of any promotion to watch a new Star Trek series. That could either be what happens or the biggest blunder meaning CBS loose millions of dollars after no one or very few sign up as a result of what they've seen or not seen regarding Discovery and of course whether people have liked what they've seen. None of us know whether or not the reaction to discovery has been positive or negative. From my little slice of the internet, the first trailer wasn't particularly hitting home, the second trailer had people intrigued but all the while I've noticed a sense of this production being rather troubled - the firing of Bryan Fuller is potentially the catalyst for these rumours and opinions from sources connected to people connected to the show. 

 

The proof as to whether Discovery is a hit or not will be in an announcement for season 2 and in what form that announcement comes in shortly after the launch of season 1. If there's no announcement, you can bet your favourite star ship model that substantial changes will be happening. If there is an announcement for season 2 but that season 2 will chart the rise and fall of Khan then we'll know that Discovery has not worked. 

 

I don't think Star Trek will go away. I think CBS and Paramount have too much vested interest in making it a hit. What may happen though is a more fan-based approach. Like the Khan series, that is likely to be a period piece and it may be that from season 2 onward, CBS decide to turn this into an Anthology series where each series is set in a specific period of time within the Trek verse. That could mean anything from cameos to behind the scenes guys returning to approach a new series by recreating for example; Enterprise D sets or DS9 sets for the purpose of a specific story set within the Dominion War for example. 

 

That could be a good way in building back the trust with a still substantial fan-base. Once you've got the fans onboard, then perhaps you could begin to develop wholly new shows with a distinctive look that broadens the scope of Star Trek to include other ideas. 

 

I think for now though Star Trek is in a weird limbo - Discovery will be the test - does such a departure (going on what we've seen and heard) work? if so? how much has it worked? If not? what failed to resonate with the fans.

 

I still don't really think that an audience unfamiliar with Star Trek will be in any way shape or form, interested in this new show - unless its stories make it into the public eye, I think Discovery at first will be a success or failure based upon fan reaction to it and I think its that, that has the studio, the creatives behind the show worried about it's success.

 

I think really it's CBS hoping it will work, knowing it may not work and having that Meyer/Khan contingency plan in place as a solution to how much Discovery does or does not work.