981 replies to this topic

[Alteran195]

The only thing I meant was a stretch was seeing a Constitution Class. Discovery mainly operates alone, and the majority of her interaction with other Federation ships have happened off screen.

I dont deny we should have seen some other ships the few times shes encountered other Starfleet ships, but not necessarily a Connie.

The war story is not nearly as cohesive as DS9s

The big issue with the war as it is currently being shown is that were getting conflicted information.

The map we saw when Discovery jumped back showed the Klingons dominating all of the shown Federation space. But then were told theyre only occupying 20% of Federation space.

Were also told theyve only lost 1/3rd of the fleet, which is bad, but I dont see it as being so bad that Starfleet would be as desperate as they seem to be.

Compared to the Dominion War, Starfleet is much better off.

I really think the problem with the story was Fuller setting something up, and CBS and the rest of the crew wanting to change it after he left.

We know he is responsible for the drastic change to the Klingons, and that he didnt like the cylindrical nacelles of the TOS era, so its possible the story was changed to better fit as hard as that might be to believe.

[Gothneo]

The war was supposed to be the central theme of the show... but it seems to have been relegated to subplot?

 

Admiral Cornwall seemed ready to make terms to surrender to L'Rell right then and there if she could, and a loss of 33% of your fleet and 20% of territory in 9 months is pretty devastating... even assuming they turn the tide... it'd be a slog... and first they have to stop the advances... so its likely they would loose more ships and more territory... then they have to win it all back! They sure are making it sound as bad if not worse than the dominion. 

 

but as you say the story line of the war just isn't coherent... and thats my main sticking point. Of course... Maybe I missed the whole point of the show... in which case... I'm still left with bad writing!

[Alteran195]

It was supossed to be, but Im guessing thats one of the things that was changed. The Klingons were supposed to be more focused on too, but they werent either.

As for the war itself.

The Klingons made such advancements because of the cloak.

The Federation could turn the tide fairly rapidly now that theyve gotten through it, and the with majority of their fleet still intact I dont know why theyre so desperate.

Im hoping the end will be satisfying, but well see.

Since season 2 will be one vision, Im hoping its story will be more cohesive.

[Gothneo]

Well... this is the tagline up non IMDB... 

 

 

Ten years before Kirk, Spock and the Enterprise, the USS Discovery discovers new worlds and lifeforms as one Starfleet officer learns to understand all things alien

 

 

I think they visited one new world and lifeform.... and it implies that to Burnham, everything is Alien, including her own humanity... but I don't think they really followed that narrative too much either. 

 

She still thinks she caused the war... when L'Rell told them outright the Klingons were looking for a fight, heck the whole premise of Vulcan Hello was you gotta give em a big punch in the nose just to say "Hi". After everything she tried to do... they actually fired first... and by the point they are at it should be obvious they were gonna start a fight with whomever came along. So... it seems Burnham is a bit slow on the obvious!  But still after all thats happened... its seems the only thing she was able to do is open up a bit emotionally to Tyler... and everything else Alien seems to have gotten past her...  sure she solved engineering problems... but she seems not to have grown socially in much other ways.

[Whirlygig]

If they wanted me to think that Burnham has spent all this time, including the present, being butt-hurt about Georgiou's death (I think that's what it is supposed to be, moreso than the war)....they should really have invested in some character building flashbacks after that series opener that would prove to me they actually had a meaningful relationship.  But they were more interested in having a human/Klingon hybrid and a mirror universe instead.

 

Also...if they wanted me to think there was a big war going on, they could have made it seem like there is a bit more to war than "magical spore ship solves all problems".  A little line about "we lost 1/3 of the fleet" or whatever, and everybody going sad-face, is a pretty big cop-out.  That's not a story **about** war, that's a story about a magical spore ship that solves all problems, I presume by going back in time of course, or whatever else makes less sense than that.

[djc242]

I have to treat DSC as basically a reboot. That’s the only way my geek logic can accept it. In my mind everything else minus JJ stuff was the first Trek universe. This is basically the third one...that sometimes isn’t really Trek at all.

[Gothneo]

If they wanted me to think that Burnham has spent all this time, including the present, being butt-hurt about Georgiou's death (I think that's what it is supposed to be, moreso than the war)....they should really have invested in some character building flashbacks after that series opener that would prove to me they actually had a meaningful relationship.  But they were more interested in having a human/Klingon hybrid and a mirror universe instead.

 

Also...if they wanted me to think there was a big war going on, they could have made it seem like there is a bit more to war than "magical spore ship solves all problems".  A little line about "we lost 1/3 of the fleet" or whatever, and everybody going sad-face, is a pretty big cop-out.  That's not a story **about** war, that's a story about a magical spore ship that solves all problems, I presume by going back in time of course, or whatever else makes less sense than that.

 

I'm 100% with you here Whirlygig.... and darn it if you didn't just nail a much better way of "exploring" Burnham's humanity and growth... she could have trudged onward with "yoda" like flashbacks making her realize what Georgiou was trying to teach her... and how much she really lost. 

 

And it's not just the war and Georgiou / Burnham's relationship that seems superficial... as pointed out a lot of the  crew seemed superficial.... no depth to the med staff... no real depth to the bridge crew... Lorca seems like the only fully developed and explored character at this point!

 

I have to treat DSC as basically a reboot. That’s the only way my geek logic can accept it.

 

This is ok and at times fun sci-fi, but in the final analysis, I think I have to agree with you djc242. Basically... if Mirror Universe (Evil) Gene Roddenberry were to write Trek... this is it.

[1701D]

I dont really see how Kirk supposedly being on the Republic not doing front line fighting is evidence of the writers making a mess of things.

We know the TOS Defiant was charting systems, so it wasnt on the front lines either. Why cant the Republic be doing the same?

Exactly. I mean I guess its down to how much you want to pick apart and dissect every bit of Star Trek.

Even during the Dominion War not every ship was on the front line.

The Enterprise E was mainly doing diplomatic stuff, and not participating in as much of the front line action.

I hated the fact that the federation flagship was off on some tooty fruity mission to save some back water race from some other back water alien.

Insurrection would of been a better Tv episode and the film should of been a movie that incorporated the DS9 story as told from the TNG crews point of view. Perhaps Picard is sent on a covert mission to infiltrate the Dominion from within. I dont think they thought big enough with the TNG movies past F.C.

The Enterprise of this era isnt the flagship of the fleet, who knows what jobs Starfleet has her doing. Pike and Spock very well could be out there fighting Klingons, just because it isnt mentioned doesnt mean it isnt happening.

Or they could have the Enterprise and other Constitutions sitting at Earth in defense.

Not to mention we havent really seen much of the war itself, so saying we should have seen a Connie by now is a stretch.

I agree. The fact is that The Cage isnt part of TOS. Where No Man Has Gone Before is the first episode of TOS. Anything before that is anyones guess so yes Discovery is a bit of a mess, but there are explanations and reasons as to why we are where we are within the story... my fear is that they wont dully explain or conclude all of the loose ends which will leave us scratching our heads until season 2.

[VulcanFanatic]

I agree. The fact is that The Cage isnt part of TOS. Where No Man Has Gone Before is the first episode of TOS. Anything before that is anyones guess

What, you never saw "The Menagerie"? Of course the events of "The Cage" are a part of TOS.

[1701D]

What, you never saw "The Menagerie"? Of course the events of "The Cage" are a part of TOS.

Are they? Are you sure about that. The Talosians broadcast an approximation of the voyages of Captain Pike and Mr Spock, not the truth.

The fact is The Cage is a failed pilot. It wasnt canon and isnt canon. Anything written by fans or in books isnt canon either. It was chopped about to make The Menagerie but in truth, do we really know what happened in the known galaxy during Pikes time on the Enterprise besides what Star Trek: Discovery has told us so far...

[Gothneo]

If you don't care about canon... thats fine, but there are plenty of other references that give us times of events prior to Kirks Run on TOS... 

 

Lets just start with 4 seasons of ENT and go from there!

 

But the cage becomes canon by fact of all the information provided via the menagerie. If it had never been done as the menagerie, then yes it would have been a failed pilot, but they decided to incorporate it. 

 

We know when April was commander of the 1701 from TAS. Plus there are a number of references from other shows too. 

 

I don't get too hung up on a lot of it myself... don't mind about the different ship, tech and uniform aesthetics, but some fans, including yourself have argued and desiccated that ad-neusem. 

 

This is the problem with doing a prequel that many many fans have pointed out.. that have a very valid point. I withheld prejudging  DISCO as being a mistake in this regards because with good surgical writing I believe they could have pulled it off... but I'm thinking they wrote themselves into a corner already. 

[1701D]

If you don't care about canon... thats fine, but there are plenty of other references that give us times of events prior to Kirks Run on TOS... 
 
Lets just start with 4 seasons of ENT and go from there!
 
But the cage becomes canon by fact of all the information provided via the menagerie. If it had never been done as the menagerie, then yes it would have been a failed pilot, but they decided to incorporate it. 
 
We know when April was commander of the 1701 from TAS. Plus there are a number of references from other shows too. 
 
I don't get too hung up on a lot of it myself... don't mind about the different ship, tech and uniform aesthetics, but some fans, including yourself have argued and desiccated that ad-neusem. 
 
This is the problem with doing a prequel that many many fans have pointed out.. that have a very valid point. I withheld prejudging  DISCO as being a mistake in this regards because with good surgical writing I believe they could have pulled it off... but I'm thinking they wrote themselves into a corner already. 

I think the visual canon to this show is off but even that is kind of explained and could be explained. If we get to one week before Kirk takes command of the Enterprise and Stamets is still jumping around the Galaxy with spaw drive tech then Id be a little confused, if the Starfleet doesnt go through a radical design and tech shift towards the TOS aesthetic then that will be a head scratcher too as the company line has always been that this show fits into the prime timeline.

I think the written canon is open to debate because whos to say that what was shown to Kirk during the court marshal of Spock actually looked like that and we were only looking at a very specific part of that time period dealing with just two characters and one ship in a vast galaxy of events that Discovery has been showing us were taking place at the same time.

I have no doubt that the events of the Cage happened but isnt it plausible that what we saw was a characters idea of what took place rather than actual fact?

Two people walk into a bar.

One says a massive fight broke out, windows were smashed and people were trampled to death.

The other says a large fight broke out but was quickly stopped by police and security, some people were hurt.

I guess what Discovery does really well is it challenges peoples perceptions on canon and continuity and for those bothered about such things to really think and discuss what was actually canon and what was actually just a characters idea of what took place.

The same but different.

[Gothneo]

To your point. A fight ensued, people were hurt... 

 

thats the level I'm at... to me.... theres enough sloppy writing in DISCO to say... its basically a round peg in a square hole. you seem to be the one trying to go down into the details... any dates I gave are directly from Memory Alpha and are taken as canon and I only use them to be exemplary of the wider issue that I see. Again, to the above point... Ignorance is bliss... if you don't know someone died in a fight... you assume it wasn't as bad as it really was... so if you never saw any other Star Trek... theres no issue with canon... but the writing is still a mess even with-in the story line! 

[Whirlygig]

LMAO...dude (1701D), it's only challenging *your* perception of what is canon. The rest of us are perceiving just fine. You write incoherent arguments and then at the end boast that the incoherence is the point - and also a virtue!

[Gothneo]

Its all that fake canon out there!

 

Seriously though, with sites like Memory Alpha, even with all the trek out there, its not that hard to get ones thoughts pretty organized and see whats canon and whats not.

 

I'm not... and have never taken a position that DISCO hasn't been having its way with canon like Weinstein with an aspiring actress. I think its pretty much that gross.  As others have said... you really have to put it aside for DISCO to work pretty much at all. 

[Whirlygig]

Its all that fake canon out there!

 

Lololol

 

I agree.  Since the internet was famously built upon Star Trek and porn, I offer the following analogy for Discovery...

 

Discovery is like Star Trek porn...  you might enjoy watching it, but you might not enjoy thinking/talking about it too much...

 

I don't mean that to be too funny, either -- I do enjoy watching it, but I feel guilty later.  It's definitely a guilty pleasure show for Trek, but Trek should be more than that.  In fact I think that's what I will call it going forward...  Discovery, the guilty pleasure of Star Trek.

[1701D]

LMAO...dude (1701D), it's only challenging *your* perception of what is canon. The rest of us are perceiving just fine. You write incoherent arguments and then at the end boast that the incoherence is the point - and also a virtue!

Star Trek canon is incoherent.

[Gothneo]

So... and I may regret asking... but why do you say that... and maybe just try and come up with the best single incoherent example?

 

I'm asking because... for the most part I don't think its so bad... we had TOS... TAS... then the movies.. and then TNG, DS9, and VOY... and for the most part everything was pretty linear wasn't it? and I suggest that because Until ENT, DISCO and the JJ movies... we were mostly going forward. 

[FHC]

What I find most amusing about this thread is the number of people that have posted that they are done posting only to post again within 5 posts.

[Alteran195]

The universes canon during TOS and TAS were all over the place.

Roddenberry said he made TAS with no sense of canon, and TOS seems fairly similar.

TNG and onward tried to stay true to an established canon, but also decided to change thing on a whim with no explanation. The Klingons being part of the Federation in early TNG then not being later one is the best example I can think of.