83 replies to this topic

[Artistix]

Should be an interesting thread.

1. Problems with the series?
2. Overused characters?
3. stand out episodes?

[slayerone76]

1. Problems with series? I don't think there were any. I loved Voyager and it is my favorite series of the franchise.

2. Seven of Nine was overused and the Borg got a little tiring, but what else were they to do to get ratings. The fandom hated VOY. So put in a little T&A and a bit of Borg evil and thats what you get.

3. Interesting question. I can't say that any really stand out. I liked a lot of them and I never really thought about favorites. Weird.

[JMW326]

1. I loved it. I just wish the ship would have shown some wear and tear as the series progressed (they were after all a long way from a "Starfleet" space dock).

2. Neelix, Kess and Seven. Not horrible characters but way over used.

3. Year of Hell pt1 and pt2. Scorpian pt1 and pt2

[A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees]

Since you seem to ask generally what my thoughts are on Voyager, I'll lay them out in a somewhat haphazard manner that will hopefully get the ball rolling...

I think one of the biggest problems with the series was its overall tone. Every week, there was a pristine Voyager warping through space stumbling across some alien civilization, and while they kept referencing the fact that they were alone, it didn't feel like it. It felt exactly like Next Generation, where Starfleet was right around the corner. That brings me to the standout episode, "Year of Hell" where we actually see Voyager messed up, forming alliances, trying to scrape by.

Seven of 9 was painfully overused, as were (while they weren't characters per se...) Borg nanoprobes. It seems like those little buggers could do everything but cook an omlette. The overused characters in a series are that way because either the actor is so good that they're given more and more work to do, or, more often, it's because the characters themselves are the easiest to write for. That's why Data was used so heavily. It's why 7 and Doc were used so heavily as well. By contrast, characters like Harry Kim suffer either because the actor stinks, or there's just nowhere for them to go. One of the unfortunate side effects of the premise of the show is that you can't swap out, you can't promote people. If you did, you'd arrive at earth 70 years later on a ship full of captains, commodores and admirals. Harry had to be a wet-behind-the-ears ensign for 7 years because he had no room for promotion, and it was decided that someone had to fill that role. The character suffered tremendously for it.

Another standout episode, was Living Witness. It's one of my personal favorites, not for the mirror Voyager that we see, but for the predicament of the Doctor, lost from a ship that was itself... lost.

What would have benefitted Voyager IMO, would have been a whole new creative team behind the camera. I don't blame Rick Berman or Brannon Brega per se. I don't blame them for all that was wrong with it, and I don't even think Voyager is a BAD show. It was just more of the same, which was unfortunate since it had the potential to be so different, AND.. we'd seen it all before. Berman has a tremendous talent, but it seems that he or his superiors were unwilling to challenge themselves to re-invent the franchise and move it forward. THAT is really the root cause of the tone issue I speak of.

I think Tuvok became underused because his role (from a dramatic POV, not a ship's role POV) was dissolved and split up between other characters like Chakotay and 7. He was originally supposed to be her trusted advisor, and the dispassionate outside observer of humanity. A combination of Kirk's McCoy and Mr. Spock rolled into one. The trusted advisor role fell to Chakotay, and the outside observer went to 7.

I never quite did understand the point to Neelix. He didn't really annoy me as much as he seemed to other people, but I just had this feeling like there was nothing for him to do. It would have been nice if his character had a harder edge to him. A shadier character with questionable motives.... the Dr. Smith, if you want to borrow something from Lost in Space, without the buffoonery. If a comic persona was needed, I think the Doctor would have been better suited. Overall, I think the show would have been better off with fewer characters to concentrate on.

[JMW326]

I don't know Chimp. Maybe you should tell us how you really feel. LOL. Just kidding man, you have some really good points there. The nano probes were used way to much for everything. I never realy cared for the direction that they took Tuvoks character. Actualy once Seven arrived we didn't get to see to much growth from many characters.

[A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees]

^^ part of that tone problem also, I think, has to do with the way Next Generation was written. Starfleet was always right around the corner, except when there was a problem. When danger lurked the nearest starbase was 4 days away, the nearest ship was 6 hours away, and the Enterprise was about to be destroyed in 1 minute. Ya, Starfleet was there, but they did no good, so it undercut the threat of being lost and alone on Voyager.


Personally, I would have cut down the core cast to about 3 or 4 characters, and during the course of the series killed 1 or 2 off to be replaced either by aliens met along the way, or officers on board we hadn't seen before taking their places.

[Artistix]

Whilst I also thought Voyager was an awesome show, I do see Chimps point of view.

I also would have appreciated the show being more along the lines of 'Year of Hell'....seems like a much more realistic course of events.

Though Voyager did bring in it's own baddies, as well as relying on the Borg. The Kazon, Vidiian & the Hirogen were pretty cool species...though I felt the Hirogen were 'humanised' too early in time. It would have been nice to see another race who were as uncompassionate & hell bent on destruction as the Borg.

Then came Species 8472...& I think they were one of the most creative species to come from Trek...I really liked them. I can't even remember what happened with the Species...but I do recall their line being 'The weak will perish'

[Chalksquared]

I agree with y'all about Voyager never showing any wear or tear. They would be in a big battle, having conduits blowing, and then all would be well. After "Deadlock" they should have looked like "Year of Hell" but no... everything was fine and the ship was dandy.

I actually really liked Voyager... after season 3 I think. I agree that there were too many people to focus on. Neelix and Kes should have been guest stars and not regulars.

Tuvok was never meant to be the outside observer to humanity for this show. It was supposed to be Neelix and Kes, but then the Doctor and 7 assumed the roles.

I wish they had done away with Harry Kim. A lot of your crew dies in the first episode, yet you still have plenty of people for all your positions?!? The way Tom was the pilot but also HAD to be the medic was nice. Why not have Chakotay man Ops?

I thought "Latent Image" was a good episode, as was "Living Witness". And I know y'all will disagree with me, but I thought "Fury" was nice because:
a) it had time travel and
t'was nice to see Kes again.

[Chalksquared]

And anytime Troi popped up was a good episode...

[DST Trek Collector]

1. As said above, how the ship was always in top form each week. Also how come they got new rifles and phasers but not uniforms? The fact that there were a lot of recurring themes throught the episodes making it feel like all the episodes were the same. Saying that i sound like i hated it, but i actually really liked it. The last few seasons really felt like the crew was a family.
2. I would have to say Seven, but i aint complaining lol!
3. All the Barclay/Troi ones towards the end were great IMO. Also living witness, Scorpion, Tinker tenor doctor spy and the one where the doc and seven switch bodies to stop the doctor getting deleted or something . That one was funny. I also enjoyed the Dcotor/Seven ones.

[Artistix]

Tuvok was never meant to be the outside observer to humanity for this show. It was supposed to be Neelix and Kes, but then the Doctor and 7 assumed the roles.

With the love people have for characters like Spock, Data & Odo...I wasn't too surprised when Voyager went into overload with Tuvok, B'Elanna, Seven & the Doctor all struggling with their humanity.

[slayerone76]

I don't remember Tuvok struggling with humanity, I remembered him struggling to understand that the Vulcan way isn't the only way to do things. I also don't remember B'Elanna struggling with her humanity as much her Klingon side. She didn't seem to have trouble being human, but she had trouble fighting to understand and come to terms with being Klingon too.

[A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees]

I don't remember Tuvok struggling with humanity, I remembered him struggling to understand that the Vulcan way isn't the only way to do things.

I don't take "outside observer" to necessarily be someone struggling with humanity, so much as being apart from it, and thus providing commentary on it. Had Spock been a full Vulcan, he still would have been the outside observer, but his character, or should I say, some of the minor points of his character, would have been different. Thematically his role would have been the same.

If struggling with humanity is the bar of outside observer, I think it would almost have to be B'Elanna. In fact, B'Elanna reminds me in a way of what I imagine adolescent Spock would have been like had he decided his human half was who he was, rather than his Vulcan side becoming the dominant persona.

Matter of fact, that quality was the only reason I could see B'Elanna and Paris together. They both had huge chips on their shoulders (albeit for very different reasons), and sadly, both became nearly model officers right away. I don't begrudge the change. Angst week in and week out can become extremely tiring, but I think it should have been more gradual.


If anyone's interested, here're my thoughts on "Chimp Trek: Voyager" ....

I think Voyager initially should have concentrated on

Janeway (model starfleet officer and commander)
Chakotay (leader of the "rebels" who are begrudgingly working for her, and the more emotional McCoy type.)
Tuvok (obvious Spock dynamic, and as security chief providing Janeway with a little more "security" that she wouldn't be overthrown by the Maquis elements)
B'Elanna (struggling with her humanity, and as chief engineer provides Chakotay with potential leverage against the captain, should it be necessary)

Janeway and Chakotay work together becaause they have to. Chakotay is first officer only because Janeway needs his cooperation in order to have enough people to fully crew the ship. They struggle with the idea of forming alliances with the different aliens they meet, possibly because those alliances might compromise some traditional Starfleet principles. Any such friends they make may have the consequence of creating enemies later in the show.

Not being starfleet officers, the Maquis elements, unbeknownst to Chakotay, instead of merely whining that Janeway isn't going to get them home fast enough, actually take action and make a secret alliance with an alien race at some point to stage a mutiny, which is repelled over a multi-episode arc. The conclusion of that mutiny sees Tom Paris reappear for the first time since the Pilot in a major way. Since neither Janeway nor Chakotay trust him, instead of becoming the ship's pilot, he's sent to deck scrubbing duty. When he ultimately takes Janeway's and Chakotay's side during the mutiny, he's given more responsiblity, and becomes "a valued member of the crew" so to speak. The next couple seasons would have been spent slowly rebuilding trust between the crews in a series of B-plots to episodes which would pop up 2 -3 times per season. The upshot is, that by the end of the series they become the well oiled machine working together (thanks to the tenacity of Janeway and Chakotay primarily), that they seemed to become after the first month of the real series.

The other characters would be, at best, rotating guest characters like a Q or Barclay in terms of frequency of appearance, with the chance of becoming more permanent members of the cast if the writers find a compelling character arc for them. In this way, we might see a crewman rise up through the ranks, or an alien like Neelix join the ship.

Voyager would become damaged and repaired gradually throughout the series such that the ship that ends the series is only vaguely recognizable as the ship that started it. I'm not saying that the ship has to be on the verge of falling apart week in and week out, that also gets tiresome, but as battles happen, consoles explode on the bridge, or engineering, or something and they get replaced with alien technology which is adapted to fit the ship.

Voyager itself may even have ended up destroyed around the 5th or 6th season, to be replaced by an alien vessel which they rename "Voyager-II" or something of that nature. Though I'm a little dubious about this idea, I think it would (could) have been very dramatic, and act as the catalyst to get these crews really working together in earnest.

[Artistix]

Struggling with humaity was a bad choice of words.

[TheHSBR]

I like Chimps idea of the Voyager concept but I also like how the series panned out. I think it really helped that many of the Maquis were former Starfleet officers that dropped out for one reason or another. It lent credence to how they were able to fit into the Starfleet system again. My favorite episode was "Equinox" because it showed almost a mirror of what Voyager could have been. I thought that this episode really showed what an advantage Voyager had over much of the technology present in the Delta Quadrant. The Nova class ship even mad eit pretty far which i think speaks volumes about Starfleet tech. Looking back the ship was pretty clean but how many times did we see any Enterprise enter into spacedock to get repairs? Im sure we could assume that alien cultures have spacedock as well that would be able to get the job done.

I thought Voyager was the most human crew reagrding care and a family atmosphere. It wasnt as steilre as the other Treks with formal lines being drawn between rank. My only complaint is that Chakotay and Janeway didnt hook up. I understand the deep friendship but I think those two should have hooked up in the final episode.

[slayerone76]

Yeah, Janeway and Chakotay all the way! The Seven and Chakotay relationship kinda blind sided me. There was never any indication as far as I remember until it happened.

[A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees]

how many times did we see any Enterprise enter into spacedock to get repairs? Im sure we could assume that alien cultures have spacedock as well that would be able to get the job done.

I completely agree on this point. Obviously, there are alien races with starship repair facilities which Voyager could use... IF... they were able to barter for their use, or otherwise create an alliance with those races, and, since you are using alien repair facilities, I think lends even more credence to Voyager slowly morphing into an amalgamation of alien race technologies. Without Starfleet repair facilities, they have to make do with what's adaptable to Voyager, whether or not it is aesthetically pleasing with the rest of the ship.

As for Enterprise entering dock, the only times I remember the Enterprise D entering some kind of repair facility was in the Binar Episode, at the end of Best of Both Worlds pt. II, and during Starship Mine.

The point is not that you need to SEE them being repaired, so much as knowing that they always had access to it when needed. Since stardates are very squishy things, there's not really much to say that months haven't gone by between episodes, during which time they were in Spacedock. In fact, there are references to equipment upgrades during All Good Things (that is equipment the Enterprise of the past does not have that the Enterprises of the present and future do), as well as, I believe, a new warp core they received during Data's Sigmund Freud hallucination episode in season 7.

Voyager doesn't have access to any of that, or at least it's not readily apparent that it does, so when you see them the next week after a battle, there should be a throwaway line every now and then of a repair stop being made, or you see equipment that blew up replaced with something decidedly non-Starfleet.

I also think "Voyager" would have been interesting on a Defiant class vessel. Something that's built for long distance short duration missions (i.e. distant battles), was never meant to be in continuous service so long, and, on top of everything else... is cramped as all heck for the crew to uncomfortably live in. Kinda like a spacefaring submarine show. That's not the kind of direction I think they should have taken, mind you, I simply think it would have been an interesting concept to explore. Voyager always seemed much bigger than it was supposed to be to me.

[TheHSBR]

to play devils advocate....just because alien tech is used does not mean that the ship has to change. with replicator technology and warp mechanics being prety much the same...the look of things could remain constant.. The thing I never got is how they always talked about "gelpacks" being organic but it was never really used as a plot piece (except for shattered and some early stuff). I would have thought those would be hard to replace. I suppose everything can be replicated with enough power reserves.

I did however enjoy when they borgified the ship. keeping the ship the same was the easy way out to keep cost down. i think your suggestion makes a lot of sense but i dont think having the ship remain the way it did is out of the realm of possibility either.

[A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees]

The thing I never got is how they always talked about "gelpacks" being organic but it was never really used as a plot piece (except for shattered and some early stuff).

Get the cheese to sickbay! LOL

[Wildcard]

Should be an interesting thread.

1. Problems with the series?
2. Overused characters?
3. stand out episodes?

1. Lots of potential, very little follow through. i.e. The Maquis got along with the Starfleet crew waaaay to quickly. There should have been a little more attention paid to some "growing pains" before the crew started gelling together.

2. 7of9. The last few seasons felt like it was the Janeway/7of9/Doctor show. Granted these three were the "breakout" characters, but there was a lot more that could have...nae SHOULD have been done with the rest of the cast INCLUDING poor Kes. I hated the way they dropped her (although "The Gift" was a lovely episode) and then uncerimoneously brought her back with "Fury" and then sent her off again in a horrible, unsatisfying way.

3. "The Killing Game", "Caretaker", and "Body and Soul" were some of my traditional favorites. A lot of people didn't like some of the more non-traditional episodes such as "Fair Haven" and "11:59" but I actually liked both of these tremendously. They showed a lot of literary value, although I'll admit they didn't necessarily make for captivating television. I looked at them more as "The Bronte sisters do Star Trek"...which fits in rather nicely with Janeway's character (not to mention Mrs. Mulgrew's acting talent as well).