981 replies to this topic

[Gothneo]

is that the only thing not playing?? if so maybe you need to clear a cache? 

[djc242]

I use the Apple TV app. I hard quit the app but that didn’t work. It also didn’t show up on my phone app either.

I found a work around with Amazon and saw it.

[MisterPL]

SLOAN: Section 31 was part of the original Starfleet charter.

BASHIR: That was two hundred years ago.

 

Deep Space Nine, "Inquisition"

[Gothneo]

Yes.. but dont they go on to explain that Sec 31 no longer operates under any official starfleet jurisdiction ... implying that while it may have started as an official organization per the charter... it no longer really is part of starfleet.

[MisterPL]

Yes.. but dont they go on to explain that Sec 31 no longer operates under any official starfleet jurisdiction ... implying that while it may have started as an official organization per the charter... it no longer really is part of starfleet.

 

SISKO: There's no record of a Deputy Director Sloan anywhere in Starfleet. As for Section 31... that's a little more complicated. Starfleet Command didn't acknowledge its existence. But they didn't deny it either.

 

While Section 31 was a part of the original Starfleet charter, at some point it became... Mission: Impossible. Apparently it's still somewhat official during the events of Discovery but not 100 or so years later during Deep Space Nine.

[Gothneo]

Well... 

 

From the Wiki..

 

Section 31's very existence was a deeply buried secret, known only to a handful of people beyond its own membership

 

 

 

But dang... everyone seems to know all about it in DISCO!

 

 

Perhaps Section 31's darkest aspect was that, while it had existed since the beginning of Starfleet, it was autonomous, having operated for over two centuries with no oversight or accountability whatsoever, even free to kill those it deemed a threat to Federation interests at its own discretion. (DS9: "When It Rains...") By the time of the Dominion War, at least some of Starfleet Command's top officers knew for certain of Section 31's existence, and on occasion even worked with them to serve the interests of the Federation. However for the sake of propriety, they tended to keep as much distance from the organization as possible.

 

All this implied that while Section 31 may have originated from the charter... its no longer sanctioned or run by.. or indeed even a part of Starfleet... it is its own thing... a cancer that needed to be removed... but they seem to be retconning its importance and place in starfleet. 

[Whirlygig]

All I know is we are in for entire seasons of a show where Yeoh removes her hood and disintegrates people with a smirk on her face. As the good guy.

[Gothneo]

I was kinda hoping for a bit of "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon"... 

[djc242]

Yeah, the Klingon makeup is really making the actors performances difficult. I dont understand the long fingers either.

The Section 31 element is controversial but Im willling to see where they go with that.

[MisterPL]

Well... 

 

From the Wiki..

 

But dang... everyone seems to know all about it in DISCO!

 

All this implied that while Section 31 may have originated from the charter... its no longer sanctioned or run by.. or indeed even a part of Starfleet... it is its own thing... a cancer that needed to be removed... but they seem to be retconning its importance and place in starfleet. 

 

 

Wikis are nice but I prefer to get my info straight from the source material. 

 

BASHIR: Is it possible that the Federation would condone this kind of activity?

ODO: Personally, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't. Every other great power has a unit like Section 31... the Romulans have the Tal Shiar, the Cardassians had the Obsidian Order...
 

Starfleet and the Federation are works in progress, just like any other "great power." What may have been deemed acceptable at the inception of Section 31 lost public approval at some point. We don't really know when that was.

 

So it makes sense that more people would know about Section 31 earlier in its history. It's probably in the process of being covered up. We'll see.

 

I don't see how they're retconning anything. They're simply focusing on it in a way no other series has done prior, probably to give the new series a proper launching pad.

[Gothneo]

The wiki has all kinds of Quotes too... but also can provide some context. Im not really looking for validation thats its part of starfleet .. or not... because as Ive said IMO it was all a Mcguffin in DS9 anyhow... something to ask moral questions and for them to rise above... which they did. And thats what brought the real end of the dominion war.

But Kurtzman is running with it as a core central aspect of Star Trek. Thats what STID Did too... and why it was a failure with many. Sec 31 works as a moral juxtaposition... but I really think its a bad idea to main stream it.

Perhaps the Sir Stewart incarnation of Trek will be uplifting

[MisterPL]

But Kurtzman is running with it as a core central aspect of Star Trek. Thats what STID Did too... and why it was a failure with many. 

 

That's the first time I've read that criticism of STID.

 

I don't think there should be cause for concern that Star Trek is being turned into Mission: Impossible (although there are worse ways it can go... and it has). Were fans this put out when ENT did four episodes featuring Section 31? Is that why Insurrection failed, too?

 

I'm just trying to understand the "controversy."

[Whirlygig]

You can go ahead and have regular Starfleet where your officers and generals pontificate about humanity being better and trying to spread peace throughout the galaxy and so on and so forth.

 

And you can go ahead and have your secret Section 31 where people ignore all of that and act as assassins "on behalf of, with and/or without sanctioning by, without confirmation or denial of, regular Starfleet, etc, etc".....

 

And then you may as well be telling your stories in today's world, because that's where we are at right now.

 

Seems pretty simple to me.

[MisterPL]

Well... that's Star Trek.

[Whirlygig]

Well you know how lizard Janeway pissed several people off?  And those people had to make a choice?  Either put lizard Janeway into their cognitive "ignore" box, or put the whole of Voyager into their cognitive "ignore" box?  And then those people could continue to call themselves Star Trek fans*?

 

*except that lizard Janeway one and/or all of VOY

 

Well, similarly, so far we've been able to call ourselves Star Trek fans**...

 

**except that Section 31 stuff, dunno what's up with that, plug ears, LALALA got it in the ignore box

 

But that is creeping so heavily into the mainstream, as Gothneo puts it, that some of us now have to call ourselves Star Trek fans***....

 

***except that entire Section 31 series and that stupid crap in Discovery, aw, screw it, it's gone too deep already, ALL of Discovery, off they go into the ignore box

 

This example has of course been simplified.  Crappy writing has already given us thousands of pages of asterisk footnotes as fans to contend with.  Once upon a time it was a bit simpler, there were only 100 pages.

 

Star Trek fans are infamous (renowned?) for their attention to and appreciation of detail, but if writers continue to wipe their turdholes with those details it's gonna ruin all of our reputations.

 

...

//edit:

 

Hey look, the Disco cast has realized the same thing and expressed it through song:

https://twitter.com/...807053822144512

[MisterPL]

I'm more irritated by "fans" who ignore the details for the sake of their own head canon and cry foul than writers who simply choose to pick up where someone left off. Yes, I replace The Final Frontier with Galaxy Quest during my Star Trek movie marathons but I accept that TFF is canonical. Therefore, if there's a nugget in that movie worth embellishing or expanding upon, I'm all for it.

 

Personally, I'm no more concerned that Section 31 is going mainstream than I am about Star Trek turning into a kiddie show because there are two cartoons on the way or that the entire franchise is trying to appeal to geriatrics because the next live-action show stars a guy pushing 80. Star Trek has been spinning off since DS9. Some of it I'll enjoy, some I won't.

 

I imagine I'll always be a fan if only because there's far more I enjoy about the shows and films than not.

[Whirlygig]

or that the entire franchise is trying to appeal to geriatrics because the next live-action show stars a guy pushing 80

 

Unfortunately they screwed that up, too, so we geriatrics will not be happy with that either.  It will be set in the bastardized JJverse-prime universe where red matter exists and Romulus was destroyed by an attempt to use it to thwart a supernova....  One of the stupidest things I've ever heard.  So yeah ... I guess JJ didn't just ruin his own verse, he ruined the primeverse too.

 

You go ahead and be irritated by the fact that I want to both have a bit of canon cake and eat it with some consistency of message and execution too.  I will be irritated that I cannot.

[Gothneo]

 

I'm just trying to understand the "controversy."

 

 

No controversy to understand... that I know of... and I'm certainly not suggesting any such thing... my argument is quite simply predicated on.. as Whirlygig is fond of reminding me... the overall poor quality of the writing we've been getting ever since the 2009 reboot... all the way until now. 

Are there some glimmers of good writing? Yes. But overall... I can't say the latest body of work is great SciFi... let alone great Star Trek.  Does it stop me from watching and enjoying it? No. Not at all.

 

Will I watch the new Sec 31 show and the rest of DISCO? Well... sure.. until my sub expires this year I guess so... I paid for it. 

As for STID being Sec 31 centered... thats not my sole interpretation... a Secret weapons facility... getting Evil Genetically altered superhumans to work for you by locking up their brethren... secret super ships... they may not have said it was section 31... but it sure operated the same way.. so it was an obvious nod to "fans" in the know, if you don't agree... thats fine. 

 

I'm not trying to change anyones opinion... or really rag on DISCO... I was just presenting my perspective on 1) Why and how section 31 was introduced (in DS9), 2) why the very idea of it in Trek seems like a bad idea to me... let alone mainstreaming it.

 

I mean... can we at least aspire to try and write more episodes like "City on the edge of Forever"... or "Inner Light"... and if we can't reach for that how about taking the tact that Manny Cotto took and really put some effort into demystifying and cleaning up the canon in a delightful manner? 

 

Hey look, the Disco cast has realized the same thing and expressed it through song:

https://twitter.com/...807053822144512

 

 

And Rent is overrated too! There I said it. people can hate on me for it but its true :-)

[MisterPL]

 

Unfortunately they screwed that up, too, so we geriatrics will not be happy with that either.  It will be set in the bastardized JJverse-prime universe where red matter exists and Romulus was destroyed by an attempt to use it to thwart a supernova....  

 

The same universe where Spock suddenly has a brother, Janeway turned into a lizard, and a rock creature pitted Abe Lincoln against Genghis Khan. Abrams' Star Trek is in good company. Let's just say it all happened on a Holodeck and hope that Below Decks gives up the mature, well written Star Trek we deserve. 

[Gothneo]

Is it the same universe ??? That seems to be questionable.

Who knows maybe were all being bob newharted!