229 replies to this topic

[TheHSBR]

Well I just find it to be ridiculous to keep people on the hook for stuff like this. Just cancel it and be done with it. Its a shame but why even pretend?

[Jedigreedo]

Personally, I'm really glad that it's not definitively canceled, but... I agree with you, because it's beginning to make me frustrated. We're not hearing anything, all we know is that it's teetering on the brink of obscurity. It's annoying knowing there is potential, but they're not doing anything to draw people in. They're remaining completely hush-hush about it. Even worse, is that they'll do that even if it becomes definitively canceled, and it will be up to the grape vine to discover it's fate. I've created an example of something they could do on their blog, which can be seen here (warning: it's my journal, and thus large amounts of insanity and harsh language exist in other posts). It would take them about half an hour tops to do something like that, would it really be that difficult for them to attempt to generate some interest on their end?

[Alex]

Well I just find it to be ridiculous to keep people on the hook for stuff like this. Just cancel it and be done with it. Its a shame but why even pretend?

Andy, if it's not definitively canceled, and sites have it for pre-order, I'd pre-order a case of these if I thought it'd put the thing closer to the production run. I mean, this is an item I really want and I thought I wouldn't even be able to pre-order. If some places are still soliiciting pre-orders and DST is serious about seeing if more people will pre-order, I'll put a pre-order down as early as tomorrow. However, if DST can't tell us what they're doing, I don't want to get my hopes up again. I want this chair though, and whoever came up with the Worf variant actually has a pretty good idea. We've seen Kirk's chair run into the ground--we got Picard's chair w/Riker as a variant, so why not tap the variant possibilities? I'm all for more chairs and more Captains. Besides, I'm getting annoyed with how DST has neglected the 24th century stuff, if this chair has a remote possibility of being made, to me that's the first thing DST has done since canceling most 24th Century stuff after the Ent-D in ages. Again, I just want DST to say "yeah, we'll make the chair if you guys pre-order it;" to me, that'd be all I'd need to put pre-orders through to support the chair. Granted, I think DST needs to advertise Trek more, and not 23rd Century Trek since that's selling--if they advertised their TNG and DS9 stuff though, they'd probably get an influx if new customers who haven't seen it elsewhere. TNG marathons run every Monday on SyFy right before Gundam 00, and the 00 crowd would probably be just as likely to pick up the Trek stuff as the TNG crowd--DST could do toy commercials all Monday night on SyFy alone and probably generate more sales. But then again, this has been mentioned before IIRC.

[TheHSBR]

It just doesnt make sense to me. What other toy company operates this way? Either make the product or dont make the product. Its unethical and just not right to place the onis on the consumer. They arent coming out and saying it but they are implying by their actions "Well if you buy more than what you need, we might produce it." Having something in limbo doesnt help anybody. Cancel it and save it for the future when you actually want to go ahead and produce not based on any type of numbers. If DST wants to be a big boy in the toy world, then they have to take risk. Come out and say its cancelled or come out and say its being produced...make a decision.

[Alex]

It just doesnt make sense to me. What other toy company operates this way? Either make the product or dont make the product.

I don't know of another toy company, but I can tell you about something similar. Earlier this year, Disney inexplicably failed to finish releasing Power Rangers Jungle Fury on DVD in the United States. Fans were perplexed, confused, and outright aggravated. After all, the previous season had seen a full season DVD release, and the "Jungle Fury" discs were structured as if they were meant for a full season release. Then to add insult to injury, Volumes 3-5 saw a release in the UK, effectively creating a full season release outside of the US/Canada. Fans were now livid and demanding answers. A source inside of TVShowsonDVD.com told one fan that the reason those of us who were "waiting for Vol. 3-5 stateside" hadn't seen any new discs, was because the second disc supposedly didn't sell as well as the first one, (which is what happens when YOU DON'T PROMOTE THINGS -- Disney and Diamond Select Toys I'm screaming at both of you,) and Disney decided to "silently cancel" Volumes 3-5 in the U.S., unless the first two volumes that were out "sold really well all of the sudden."

The fan backlash was almost immediate. Discs that hadn't been very high in the Amazon sales ranks prior to the release of this information magically shot up to the top-100 in the Sci-Fi category, in fact, Jungle Fury Vol. 1 seemed to maintain a position on that chart for a few months. (Disney has yet to release Vol. 3-5 stateside.) At the same time, "Power Rangers RPM," the current and final season was announced for its first DVD release. Again, fan reaction was immediate; now armed with the knowledge that "If Vol. 1 doesn't sell, we don't get Vol. 2" since Disney seems to have something against box sets, fans pre-ordered the disc almost as soon as it was announced. After that, they pre-ordered more of them--one person I knew pre-ordered three copies figuring he could resell them or give them to younger relatives. The concept here was simple: force the disc to sell so that Disney would release Vol. 2. Sure enough it seems to have worked. Vol. 2 is slated for a September 8, 2009 release, and fans will likely use the same tactic on Vol. 2 to ensure that Vol. 3 is produced. Why? Because Disney has only released one of 17 seasons worth of "Power Rangers" on DVD stateside, and the one that got the release was the 15th season, which was a Disney production. To say Disney treats "Power Rangers" the way Diamond Select Toys treats non-TOS Trek would be an understatement.

This brings me to my point: Just as Disney might not believe the DVDs fan so desperately want could be mass produced without some sort of pre-order guarantee, Diamond Select Toys might need a similar pre-order guarantee for Sisko+Command Chair. And like Disney, not wanting to anger fans who feel they're perpetually getting shafted with "Power Rangers" DVD releases, DST likely doesn't want to anger 24th Century Trek fans who feel like they're being fed TOS 24/7/365, and can't get a popular DS9 figure produced.

Its unethical and just not right to place the onis on the consumer. They arent coming out and saying it but they are implying by their actions "Well if you buy more than what you need, we might produce it." Having something in limbo doesnt help anybody.

I'm not saying that I disagree with you, and I'm not saying that what DST (or Disney in my other example) is doing is right, but I think it's better than an outright cancellation. If DST would just come out and say we need x-amount of pre-orders, there are many DS9 fans here (myself included) who would try to reach that number even if we had to buy multiple chairs. It's bad enough DST is shafting Voyager, but they have a DS9 line and watching them cancel the figures I'm most interested in is getting annoying. I like that DST controls the Trek license, I just wish they'd do more with it than TOS toys. Look at how the E-D sold--it doesn't need to be TOS to sell, but DST's reality distortion field would make you think otherwise.

Cancel it and save it for the future when you actually want to go ahead and produce not based on any type of numbers. If DST wants to be a big boy in the toy world, then they have to take risk. Come out and say its cancelled or come out and say its being produced...make a decision.

I agree with everything but the "cancel it" part. In truth, I'd rather that DST just raise the price for the figure and tells us that if we wanted it, we'd have to swallow the additional cost. I'd be willing to pay quite a bit more if it meant the difference between having a figure and not having a figure like Sisko+Command Chair. The same cannot be said about something such as the barrage of TOS variants, which we've had done to death. I'd like to see DST take a risk here too, I'd like them to take a risk with Voyager, but they seem to be overly cautious. Maybe they'll bid on the rights to the next Trek movie or TV show and then take a risk since Trek XI did really well, and Playmates wound up with the toy license. (I really wish DST had gotten it--the JJ-prise would've looked so much better under DST's control.) The problem is that DST is still obsessed with what happened to Enterprise/Nemesis back under Art Asylum's control that they're afraid to touch anything new, and that fear needs to go away. DST could be competing with Hasbro if they'd take a risk every now and then. Hasbro was small at one time--they bought out names like Kenner and Galoob and look at them now. DST is small, they need to stop playing it safe though and take some risks, and Sisko+Captain's Chair doesn't even seem like much of a risk to me, a "risk" would be the U.S.S. Prometheus w/Multi-Vector Assault Mode (which I have complete confidence DST could pull off after seeing Saucer Separation on the Ent-D,) or an EMH Mk. II figure from Voyager. A risk would be another line of "Enterprise" figures. DST won't even update and reissue the Enterprise-E (Why not? They know why the first ones didn't do well initially--the fixes seem simple enough to me, and most of us would probably grab a true update,) and that's a pretty popular item, so it seems to be like the problem here is a TOS bias coupled with DST's "play it safe" mentality when it comes to 24th Century figures. So far I'm not as jaded with regards to ships, but I'm getting there considering that we're seeing so many variants of the TOS Enterprise and so few of anything else.

I don't think canceling Sisko+Chair right now is a good move though Andy; it'd just reinforce the mentality around here that "DST only cares about TOS," and that's aggravating a lot of people right now. Of course, I'd rather DST trickle out 24th Century releases than lose the license. I don't want Playmates Toys to get it back (see previous statement about the JJ-prise,) and I don't want to have to switch scales or styles of figures again. This should be DST's cornerstone line, why they can't market it as such is beyond me. Maybe a new TV show would help, if they'd actually secure the license this time, now that Trek is "cool" again.

[slayerone76]

If we look at DST's record, then the argument that telling fans, "_____ number needs to sell," doesn't work. They tried this with the Buffy line and it failed. Alas, the Buffy line was completely canceled with a whole beautiful wave (with a build-a-figure) waiting to be produced.

[weyoun_9]

The problem I saw with that last Buffy wave and the "build a figure" is that most of the characters were repeats. I was totally interested in Principal Wood, but I already had a Drusilla and Oz and would much rather have preferred to have Riley or Andrew...or Gunn from "Angel", for that matter.

My point (especially for those that don't know Buffy well) is that there are many collectors who would love to be completists if their budget was better...but they can't be. So, they decide to collect one of each character and then make exceptions on a case by case basis.

I think this is why Sisko/chair sales were low...it was too similar to the other Sisko figure (with Dukat) and they split their sales base because many collectors would only have bought one or the other. The Borg wave also suffered the "build-a-base" because I know there are more people like me who were only interested in the characters and less interested in nameless army-builders. I realize there are those that DO want red-shirts and drones...but I think DST over-estimated how many per wave would sell well. Plus...to some degree I think those who like to build armies find the "building" part to be part of the fun...so why not make named characters and give the custom-folks parts to swap in that way.

Solution...market the Sisko/Chair so it sells...and give us a Dukat/Kai Winn two pack.

[marky]

Now the Sisko with Defiant Chair set is taken away from DST's website

[Jedigreedo]

http://www.diamondse.....ategoryID=335

Well, the page doesn't say canceled like the Borg wave, but it does say out of stock. Granted, I doubt anyone was pre-ordering through them anyways since they wanted $25 instead of BBTS' $20, but yeah... Removal from the site probably means it's done for. Just can't win with their ridiculous policies now.

How can they stand to constantly do this and not change their attitude?

[marky]

http://www.diamondse.....ategoryID=335

Well, the page doesn't say canceled like the Borg wave, but it does say out of stock. Granted, I doubt anyone was pre-ordering through them anyways since they wanted $25 instead of BBTS' $20, but yeah... Removal from the site probably means it's done for. Just can't win with their ridiculous policies now.

How can they stand to constantly do this and not change their attitude?

http://www.diamondse.....ategoryID=335

Yeah, but they removed it from the selection of action figures on their website Lets all hope that they promote figures better from now on...

[Jedigreedo]

I doubt it. They seem to have adopted Hasbro's strategy for killing a line. If it's too successful to cancel outright, then sabotage it and blame the fans.

Honestly, I think they've even been lying about the success, or rather, alleged lack of success for Deep Space 9 figures in general.

[Hirogen]

I doubt it. They seem to have adopted Hasbro's strategy for killing a line. If it's too successful to cancel outright, then sabotage it and blame the fans.

Honestly, I think they've even been lying about the success, or rather, alleged lack of success for Deep Space 9 figures in general.

You know, I am past the point of even caring anymore. I would rather spend my money on DCUC now and Star Wars that come out regularly.

[Dr. Crusher]

Why would they lie about that?

[TheHSBR]

I agree. There are just too many good lines out there right now for me to lose sleep over this. If DST wants to play these games whether they be legit or fictional, I dont care anymore. I think we may be hearing the DST swansong here for all their lines. This piece in particular will just go down as another great product that couldnt be released. Im beginning to think their unreleased cataloged may become more impressive than what was actually produced.

[Gothneo]

Man! It sounds like there's some pent up anger here.

I think the set has been canceled for awhile, Just because a few sites like BBTS are really slow at updating their website is little reason to get upset.

DST really got it's start with comic shop specialty items like busts, statues etc... and then went in to action figures like Marvel Select. If they tank they will probably just collapse back to these types of products.

But these types of products have never really had much a schedule. they come when they come. So from that view, DST is operating as it always has, and will most likely continue to.

DST is not Hasbro or Mattel. Heck, I doubt that toys even make up the bulk of DST's sales. Likewise Hasbro and Mattel have their issues, but they certainly don't "Sabotage" their own lines. We, as collectors have to wake up and realize that the economics of making these types of toys/collectibles has drastically changed over the last few years. Many smaller companies, some really good ones, have gone out of business. Hasbro and Mattels margins have been severely slashed, not just because cost of materials is higher, but because manufacturing, shipping, etc costs have risen. Heck I was just talking with an "Insider" the other day and they were telling me that part of Mattels problem with distribution of the DCUC line has been Factories in China closing down. When a factory closes shop in China, the retailer that put up the money gets screwed. This is why we have been seeing older waves of DCUC stocked. Retailers like it, it's selling, but Mattel can't actually get them made! And by the way when these things happen, Mattel looses huge amounts of money because they PAID the factory up front. and got nothing!

I'd be willing to bet good money that if it's happened to Mattel, it's happened to DST... and it probably is some of the stories that DSTChuck would regal once you got a couple drinks in him!

The final note is that I have no doubt that DST, like hasbro and Mattel is in this to make money, and they can't do it if they don't have new product continuously coming out... so I believe they are doing their best, but sometimes their best isn't enough and a product has to be canceled. Something to be disappointed over? To be sure! But don't let it get you angry! It'll just detract from what is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby!

[JMW326]

Man! It sounds like there's some pent up anger here.

I think the set has been canceled for awhile, Just because a few sites like BBTS are really slow at updating their website is little reason to get upset.

DST really got it's start with comic shop specialty items like busts, statues etc... and then went in to action figures like Marvel Select. If they tank they will probably just collapse back to these types of products.

But these types of products have never really had much a schedule. they come when they come. So from that view, DST is operating as it always has, and will most likely continue to.

DST is not Hasbro or Mattel. Heck, I doubt that toys even make up the bulk of DST's sales. Likewise Hasbro and Mattel have their issues, but they certainly don't "Sabotage" their own lines. We, as collectors have to wake up and realize that the economics of making these types of toys/collectibles has drastically changed over the last few years. Many smaller companies, some really good ones, have gone out of business. Hasbro and Mattels margins have been severely slashed, not just because cost of materials is higher, but because manufacturing, shipping, etc costs have risen. Heck I was just talking with an "Insider" the other day and they were telling me that part of Mattels problem with distribution of the DCUC line has been Factories in China closing down. When a factory closes shop in China, the retailer that put up the money gets screwed. This is why we have been seeing older waves of DCUC stocked. Retailers like it, it's selling, but Mattel can't actually get them made! And by the way when these things happen, Mattel looses huge amounts of money because they PAID the factory up front. and got nothing!

I'd be willing to bet good money that if it's happened to Mattel, it's happened to DST... and it probably is some of the stories that DSTChuck would regal once you got a couple drinks in him!

The final note is that I have no doubt that DST, like hasbro and Mattel is in this to make money, and they can't do it if they don't have new product continuously coming out... so I believe they are doing their best, but sometimes their best isn't enough and a product has to be canceled. Something to be disappointed over? To be sure! But don't let it get you angry! It'll just detract from what is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby!

Thank You. I agree 100% with this statement. If it is making you that unhappy then move on.

[JonWes]

Thank You. I agree 100% with this statement. If it is making you that unhappy then move on.

Not that it's too hard to move on if they're not actually releasing product...

[A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees]

I doubt it. They seem to have adopted Hasbro's strategy for killing a line. If it's too successful to cancel outright, then sabotage it and blame the fans.

Honestly, I think they've even been lying about the success, or rather, alleged lack of success for Deep Space 9 figures in general.

Why would they do that? I don't understand. How does it benefit them at all to NOT release product, and/or kill a line like that? They get paid on what they put into our hands, not what they promise and pull back out on. If they want to kill the line because it isn't making money, they can simply stop producing figures and say some variation of "sorry, we know some of you out there like it, but we just can't make it work." .... which, is exactly what they're doing. If they have a successful line, why kill the goose?

I doubt that any of the Star Trek figures are selling badly in terms of raw numbers, but I do believe that they are selling terribly in terms of profit, which is all that really matters. I have no data to back this up, but it wouldn't surprise me if we were to find out that Star Trek was, by leaps and bounds, either the most expensive franchise out there, or perhaps a close second to Star Wars, with both SW an ST being orders of magnitude more expensive than anything comparable. As much as Paramount might like to think so, Trek does not even come close to Wars in terms of consumer sales. Perhaps it did in its heyday, but not today, and that's probably what's burning DST.... or at least, that's my theory... but regardless, if it doesn't make economic sense to continue the line, why jump through these hoops, and if it does, why anger the fans by killing the line so haphazardly. It just doesn't make sense to me...

[Jedigreedo]

Very little of what DST does makes any sense anymore. In regard to the DS9 figs.... I think there is some definite bull going on there. They continually claim there is very little interest in DS9, and that the waves haven't done well. What doesn't make sense to me about this, is that Ezri became quite rare only a few months after wave 1 came out, but she was packed at least one to every single case. If there are none left of Ezri, then that means there are none left of the cases, meaning the cases would have been considered sold out. If that happened within a few months after their release, how was that not successful?

As well, wave 2 is sold out on their own site (excluding the previews exclusive). Granted, the wave is still widely available and even clearanced one some sites, but that doesn't really count; DST has already been paid for those. What counts is whether or not DST can get rid of their own supply, and apparently they have. That evidence seems to suggest that there is significant interest in DS9, just not for pre-orders - which they are far too fixated on. If they're focusing on how often these waves were pre-ordered instead of focusing on how they sold after getting released then, yeah, I can see where the "low interest" claim is coming from. However, people don't want to pre-order because it took so long to get those waves anyways due to annoying, and mostly unexplained delays.

That's where the lying bit comes in... DST doesn't want to admit it's their mistake as to why pre-orders are low, so they claim low customer interest in the actual line. That way they can still make the line at their own pace, but the responsibility is put on us whether or not it actually gets produced. Meanwhile, they continue to go through the same lengthy delays, and don't even directly inform us whether or not an item is officially canceled.

I'm sure I could easily be wrong, though, and I welcome that.

[weyoun_9]

I have to disagree with the idea of "if you're unhappy...don't talk about it here." While there's no need for, say, harsh language...isn't this a forum for this hobby? Personally, I vent my joys AND frustrations here about something I am passionate about but have no other real outlet for. I appreciate having both positive and negative responses to my comments. Plus...sometimes when I have a complaint, other members are able to give me some comfort and piece of mind with details I wasn't otherwise aware of.

Back on topic of the Sisko in chair...and pre-orders in general...does anyone know what to do regarding Toy Rocket pre-orders? Now that they're bankrupt, is AA/DST counting those orders in their overall numbers? Can we rely on the orders we've placed? (Should this be a separate thread?)

Has anyone asked if DST would consider releasing just the chair? I suppose they assume it would sell worse than the set with figure included...but I can't remember if that's ever been discussed.