981 replies to this topic

[Alteran195]

Spoiler

This entire sequence is just gorgeous:

https://i.imgur.com/Tvj20pO.gifv

[djc242]

Spoiler

This entire sequence is just gorgeous:
https://i.imgur.com/Tvj20pO.gifv

Very satisfying sequence! The sound and look of the torpedos was spot on too.

The whole episode felt like a season finale to me.

[Alteran195]

Wasnt it supposed to be before they added more episodes?

[1701D]

Yeah. Under Fuller, the war was originally meant to carry on past season 1.

I think theyve chosen wisely to end the Klingon War in the first season as its never felt to me like the driving force for the show.

[Whirlygig]

These Starfleet people sure are stupid.  Sure, evil leader of an alternate dimension, go ahead, here are the keys to our ship!  And also, go ahead and walk around freely, Klingon spy!

 

Internet responds: "But, that's the Starfleet way!"

I respond: "....at wartime?"

 

Earlier, I ask: "Why are they doing non-Starfleety things?"

Internet responds: "...because it's wartime!"

 

....

[Whirlygig]

I forgot to ask.  I'm really confused by all the mumbo jumbo about Tyler.

 

Is he:

A] Voq, made to look like Tyler?

B] Tyler, made to think like Voq?

C] Some combination of the above that allows writers to do whatever they want for reasons?

 

I am leaning toward C, unless someone can correct me, because it sounds like he's mostly Voq's body, crammed inside of a Tyler shell, but with Tyler's "engrams" (TNG/VOY term) predominantly active in his brain, even though you'd think it would be Voq's, and he would just be struggling to suppress Tyler's....but instead it seems like it's Tyler's struggling to suppress Voq's.  How'd the Klingons screw that one up so badly?  This makes me think that they didn't really intend for him to be rescued by Lorca...he was just a failed experiment...but all this time I was actually assuming I was supposed to think that he had been allowed to be rescued as the way to embed him...  So ... what is it?  What did I miss?

 

Also, as viewers, we are supposed to take it on faith that he's "all cured now" after letting the Klingon woman (what's her name?) operate on him...  it sure would help us to believe this if they had revealed to us the chief medical officer by now and had him explain it...  but they don't want us to believe it because surprise, surprise, there are some twists and turns left!!

[Gothneo]

Yeah... so much of this makes no sense. I mean now that they have unlimited spores again... why not

I. Zip back to the MU and unload evil empress and

2. Return back To the battle of the binary stars give the Klingons a proper punch in the nose and it all never happens!

Oh and where are the starfleet temporal police when you need them!

[Alteran195]

This was definitely a strange episode, and I don't really know what their endgame is for ending the war next episode. 

 

I don't have a real issue with Tyler being free since they didn't find any evidence of VoQ left, and so far he seems pretty normal, but giving Georgiou command was a weird move. Using her intelligence is one thing, but giving her Discovery and the spore drive seems like a bad idea. 

 

I hope they don't go the reset button route, but I really don't see how they end this war in one episode without it since we know season 2 has nothing to do with it. 

 

Probably the first episode that overall I didn't much care for.

[Gothneo]

At this point, if they try and go forward without some kind of reset, its got to be considered an alternate universe because there's just no way they can fix all the gaffs to canon. Maybe we should start calling the "KK" verse?

[Whirlygig]

Was I the only one who thought I was seeing Qo'nos blow up (or at least have its atmosphere burned up) in the preview?

I don't know what else that would have been...big and round and the subject of next episode...

To be a Star Trek iteration now, you have to blow up a major planet...in the past.  Next up, Earth!

[Alteran195]

Probably misdirection just like them terraforming the moon seeming to be some kind of weapon in the preview last week. 

[Gothneo]

Good thing we terraformed Mars already!!!

 

I have to say... even if they give a satisfying resolution to everything outstanding in one episode... I'm gonna rate the overall season as writing failure. This season of Discovery, from a writing and story telling perspective, to me,  is mediocre at best... and reveals that the show runners didn't have a clear idea of the story they wanted to tell... I think it can be done... but they didn't get it this time. 

 

The main reason is that to make a single story work over the span of several episodes, you still need to follow the basics of good writing, meaning at least three sold acts spaced and paced appropriately, and they have shoved so much resolution into these last two episodes, its clearly unbalanced and rushed. Imagine if the Harry Potter books spent most of the 7 books getting up to Voldemorts return and take over of the wizarding world... only to spend the last chapter of the last book to explain that Harry steps in and gets lucky and destroys him and restores everything.  

 

This is also reminiscent of season 3 or 4 of BSG. Seasons 1 and 2 worked so nicely because you could see that the writers had a clear organized structure to the story they were telling each season...  and they had a lot of help because they were able to leverage the original material and re-work any kinks it had... but when they ran out... and started free forming... it went downward quickly... revealing that the writing team wasn't near as good at writing original material as they were at re-writing mediocre material into great material.

[Alteran195]

I think Fuller leaving and his story were part of the writing issues this season. Its clear in the first couple episodes that there were aspects of the story he probably had set up that were discarded later on, but since the show was behind schedule they probably didn't have time to work everything out. 

 

I'm expecting an increase in quality in season 2 when there is one idea behind the story that will be told. 

 

On a side note, someone on Reddit made a render of what the Constitution Class in Discovery's CG style:

https://www.reddit.c...iscovery_style/

[djc242]

I have a feeling they will use the Defiant mesh we saw as their version of a constitution class. The one with saucer notches, a thicker neck, dual deflector antennae, some kind of extra modules on the nacelle struts, and slightly different nacelles.

[Alteran195]

I dont know, they said on After Trek that was after the Empire had modified it over 100 years.

Its possible well find out next week. What better place for a Constitution to show up than the finale?

[Gothneo]

Technically... the 1701 was supposed to be out and about under the command of Pike since at least 2250... and earlier under April... and Discovery is is supposed to be 2256... so Pike and Spock should have been out engaging the Klingons.... and we should have seen Connies... in fact they shouldn't be a surprise at all.  If the klingons took out 1/3 of the federation ships... its hard to believe that good contingent of those wern't some connies. 

 

Also... in the mid 2250's Kirk was on the republic... doing planetary surveys apparently with little concern for the fate of the federation! 

 

More proof these writers made a mess of things IMO... of course we still have the opportunity for a reset button. 

[1701D]

Discovery season 1 is a bit of a mess.

Its far too over worked and has the stench of too many people getting involved and putting their input into it. All you have to do is look at the opening credits to see how many executive producers are on this show.

The thing I hate more than anything else though is that the guys on Discovery all seem to understand Star Trek and even if they dont understand it. There are 700 episodes out there of the franchise to really get to understand what Star Trek is all about.

Discovery is Star Trek but only on the level of it being a mirror held up to our own societies on earth. Thats all well and good but when you have a franchise that has built upon its own mythology for coming up to 52 years... the task was incredibly simple; create a thrilling, compelling and exciting TV series SET WITHIN the Star Trek universe - meaning if you want to go back and tell a story based upon a portion of time, ten years before Kirk and Co. then make it fit into that time period.

The fact is that discovery didnt need to have this almost fantastical drive technology or multiverse gobbledygook, it would have done just as well being visually tied to the era its set, relying on the strength of its casting to really drive the quality of the show.

The other thing that continues to bemuse me is that how come they never get actual science fiction writers to write treatments anymore?

The line between science fiction and science fantasy is incredibly blurred. Star Trek kinda needed to be the last bastion of proper science fiction and I think due to studio meddling and a huge laundry list of producers each wanting their input, the first season has been great on one level of Star Trek but it has absolutely failed on another level - the level that integrates it into the mythology and continuity without having to rush the explanation of various loose ends; Voq/Tyler, Spaw Drive Tech, the war, the Enterprises place in all of this, Kirks place, Spocks place etc...

Having said all of this.

When all is said and done, delving deep into sweaty territory... Star Trek continuity in TOS didnt exist. It wasnt until TNG did producers begin to tie things together and ultimately The Cage was never actually aired... so is it canon? We know that Spock served with Pike on the Enterprise... but we were shown an approximation of what that era looked like by the Talosians... We were never actually there. As for Kirk being on the Republic... unless that was in the TOS show at some point with the year then anywhere else it might have fleshed out Kirks character isnt canon...

Ultimately I think that Star Trek continuity is a bit squiffy... thats why Discovery is working so well. Casual and new fans are loving it because they only vaguely know Star Trek... enjoy Star Trek and this show gives us a cool new approach on Trek, that on one level does do what Star Trek has always done; parallel our own world with its stories.

I mean the Klingons are terrorists fighting a holy war... each house has its own idea of what is right and wrong and that mirrors the different terrorist groups that are waging a never ending war against The West... or in Star Treks case; The Federation...

Clearly the writers are forcing a lot of political and social and ethical and moral issues into this series and doing so in a very ham-fisted, liberal way... they have failed to realise that Star Trek never had an agenda, Star Trek was above all that nonsense. Thats why Discovery does not work YET.

As for the war... I think to tie it into canon and the continuity, both sides are going to have to be utterly decimated. To the point where both sides have been forced back so far in both technological terms and evolutionary terms that by the time Discovery meets TOS, Starfleet looks incredibly different, incredibly rudimentary as a result of such a crippling blow dealt by the Klingons.

At the same time, you have a broken and decimated Klingon Empire, forced to come together as one United Empire. Using the most fearless Klingon Warrirors like Kor, Koloth and Kang to undergo the procedure Voq went through to make them appear like they did in TOS...

Its far from over. Yeah there are things in this series that are way to over done, over cooked, over developed, yes there is some complete ignorance over making this show viasually tie into the established look of Star Trek at the point in time Discovery is set. But, I think like every Star Trek show before it, its still finding out what it wants to be, where it wants to go, where it needs to go... what are its strenghts, weaknesses and what have we learnt from the reactions were seeing from our massive audiences... lets be honest here, Star Trek: Discovery has done very very well.

I have faith that ultimately these guys know what theyre doing and they know where there going and I think episode 14 was really just a big setup for everything that is going to come to pass in 15... as for the war... well the Klingons and The Federation were never allies in TOS and so I think the only way for the war to end, is for something catastrophic happening to force both sides to retreat and agree to a cease fire until its ignighted again in TOS...

[Alteran195]

I dont really see how Kirk supposedly being on the Republic not doing front line fighting is evidence of the writers making a mess of things.

We know the TOS Defiant was charting systems, so it wasnt on the front lines either. Why cant the Republic be doing the same?

Even during the Dominion War not every ship was on the front line.

The Enterprise E was mainly doing diplomatic stuff, and not participating in as much of the front line action.

The Enterprise of this era isnt the flagship of the fleet, who knows what jobs Starfleet has her doing. Pike and Spock very well could be out there fighting Klingons, just because it isnt mentioned doesnt mean it isnt happening.

Or they could have the Enterprise and other Constitutions sitting at Earth in defense.

Not to mention we havent really seen much of the war itself, so saying we should have seen a Connie by now is a stretch.

[Gothneo]

I disagree... but thats fine, I don't think my view is stretch by any means.... last episode made starfleet look desperate...on its last legs... thats what they said... and if thats true then you have all hands on deck... and the dominion war was absolutely felt all the way back on earth... they made it clear that everyone was concerned and most everyone was working towards the singular goal of winning... it was clearly on the minds of cadets...

 

But you know what... I gave Discovery its due... you can't say I didn't... I was skeptical if they'd pull it off, but I decided to withhold pre-judging it until I watched it... and at this point I feel they are left with hitting a reset button or just plowing forward as if its an alternate universe... and this is not to say it didn't have some highlights... I thought the 4 episode MU arc was nicely done... and could have been moved up early on... there were some fantastic scenes... I still like the uniform design! ... but IMO it fails to weave an overall well written story, and I think it will fail to leave me with the a Roddenberry Humanist optimistic view of the future. Early episodes with all the Klingon Subtitles are impossible for me to watch... the Mudd episode basically served only to try and establish a relationship between Tyler and Buhrnam... but was largely unnecessary... they just wasted so much time.. the overall pacing of the complete season is terrible IMO. 

 

So.. Sorry... but I don't think Discovery works well... and as a paying customer... I think I have the right to call it as I see it. But If others like it... great.  I won't tell you what you do or don't like, but based on this effort... I don't think I'll re-up my CBS AA.  I guess its a good thing that there are (collectively) 20+ Seasons of Trek I do enjoy... but DISCO won't rank highly for me. 

[Gothneo]

BTW... I think many here tended to agree that DISCO really needed to be able to hit it out of the ball park right off with going a sub model... that if ENT proved anything a Trek show couldn't take 3 or 4 seasons to find its legs... I don't think it has its legs... it wasn't a home run to me... so... I guess I should come back and binge watch in 3 years?