981 replies to this topic

[1701D]

1701D, my opinion since 2009 has been that JJ-Trek is "not real Star Trek" as many of us phrased it then, and for all the arguing that has occurred over this, my point was never really anything more than what is shown on that chart I drew above: it's far enough away from the rest of it that I can't consider it the same thing anymore.
 
You're never content to let that be a reasonable opinion for a person to have.  I just wish you could be, instead of trying to insert the last word all the time to try and make the rest of us seem like we're just being dramatic.  I suspect that you know you're being difficult, because here you are all these years later starting to admit that you've come around to similar feelings about JJ-Trek.

So... youre being binary about JJ Trek - its not Star Trek. Well, I mean it is Star Trek. Its Star Trek for millions of Star Trek fans and really who are you, who am I, who is anyone to say that something isnt Star Trek. Thats really short sighted.

I think its all very well you trying to critique the way I put my opinion across and how I view Star Trek, when youre guilty of doing the same thing. For the record, Star Trek, Star Trek Into Darkness and Star Trek Beyond are all Star Trek movies in my opinion. They all have Star Trek qualities to them and all respect certain aspects of the guiding principles of Gene Roddenberrys vision of the future. They all let themselves down in many ways by being too much removed from the rest of the franchise and certainly they are hugely divisive among some members of the fan base. However film is subjective and what isnt working for me in those movies, could be really working for someone else and thats the reason these films remain Star Trek and why I believe your argument with me is really quite hypocritical in many ways as you are not willing to see those movies as Star Trek movies, or indeed my opinion. I mean if you were content to let me have my own opinion then we wouldnt be doing this would we... You had to bring the spectrum of sci-fi into it didnt you...

Im never going to be content with someone slamming a Star Trek anything by saying its not Star Trek and giving me zero reason or evidence for that. You might not like the JJ Abrams movies, theyre certainly not my favourite moments in Star Trek, but to just say theyre not Star Trek - well, ok, what makes them not Star Trek to you? Because good luck explaining your reasoning since all film is subjective and all Star Trek isnt going to be the same and everyones take on Star Trek isnt going to be the same so... if youre going to convince me to be content with your opinion then it better go deep into what those movies and this series doesnt have to make them not Star Trek.

Anyway, bringing this back to the topic at hand, check this review of last night's episode out but particularly the comments section...  I was surprised to come across a lot of good, reasoned discussion about the series as a whole in a comments area...  I also keep being surprised to see such reasoned reviews of Trek these days on all of these random media/blog sites!
 
https://www.avclub.c...else-1822501041
 
I don't really know where they are going to take the story from here, so that's good -- I just hope they are aware of all of the loose ends they are creating as they go...in fact it's so many now that I don't really think they are capable of cleaning them up even if they wanted to...

I think the comments section of The A.V. Club do a better job at reviewing the episode and the series on the whole than the guy paid to be a critic.

I felt that this episode went past at break neck speed and really sums up the first season. Its a brilliantly acted, well paced and beautifully shot series but raises more questions than answers them. Questions I dont actually think well ever see answers to, at least not in this season.

I think a lot of the problems are to do with the troubled production and itll be great to see how season 2 does with an established behind the scenes team in place.

Spoiler

the death of Lorca is such a shame though for the characters as well as the series on the whole. Jason Isaacs was masterful and to get rid of such a talent is a big risk. I just hope that prime lorca is out there somewhere.

Sarus speech for me though was the shining moment that really cements this show. I feel like the writer Ted Sullivan was building to that moment when the crew are fully realised as members of Starfleet and what that means and the significance of being members of a peace-faring civilisation after being oppressed by Lorca.

And finally Georgio is back and how brilliant will that now play out with Bernham. Discovery continues to leave me wanting more and thats a great sign... Though there are big question marks still left to be answered, I think by and large the team writing and producing this show really understand Star Trek and know where it is they want to go with this version of it. Even if that means pissing off some of us.

This show... It is really everything weve ever said about it. I dont know if when looking back I will see Discovery as some of the best Star Trek out there or if Ill want to just skip over it as a blip to be forgotten about. For me personally speaking, its not really my kind of Star Trek, but its certainly the best first season of a Star Trek show and there are signs that it could become my kind of hopeful, aspirational and optimistic Star Trek Ive craved since 2009.

I do love Star Trek Discovery, Burnham, Saru, Tilly, Stamets, Lorca... are all some of my favourite Star Trek characters. The Discovery is one of the coolest looking ships... Though I still feel The Orville is probably a better first season of a theoretical Star Trek show that would appeal to me more than Discovery has.

[Gothneo]

I hate to say it, but compared to DISCO, The Orville already seems dated to me. I've enjoyed it and I think season 2 will be make or break for it... but it needs to find some way to be a bit more fresh and modern IMO. Maybe its because they had such a short season and its been out of view for weeks.

 

One things for sure, the last few episodes of DISCO have managed to recast how I view the season... and while I agree that each episode has great pacing... remember were being told an over-all story... and I think the pacing of the complete story is drawn out and overly complex, they have two episodes left to wrap up and close a bunch of subplots and holes... and they are making the whole thing back heavy to do it.... if they manage to to do it!

 

At the movement (and this may change in the next few episodes) I'm viewing the entirety of DISCO as a setup and execution of a Mirror Trek story... which while most are fun, I see them as a parody to Star Trek.

[MisterPL]

I think Leonard Nimoy would argue that his last two Star Trek films were absolutely "real" Star Trek.

[Whirlygig]

Im never going to be content with someone slamming a Star Trek anything by saying its not Star Trek and giving me zero reason or evidence for that.

 

But this is why you are so inept at debating, 1701D, and why I'm pretty much done doing it, about any topic.  On the previous page I gave you plenty of evidence for this very topic, and you yourself drew a diagram of your own that actually supports my point.

 

When you stop your black and white world for a moment, and understand that when I say "not real Star Trek", what I mean (and no, there is no reading between the lines there, because I *always* have clarified for you what I mean just as I will now) is that I'm defining a region on my scale which more or less encompasses everything non-JJ and calling that region "Star Trek" and unfortunately JJ falls so far away from that lump, it's not close enough to poke into the region.  

 

There's another scale at work, that I didn't draw yet (but which I *have* provided you with in the past, as discussion), which would have to do with degrees of secular humanism, and together those are really the full case, all the evidence you need for understanding my opinion.  And it's not a binary opinion -- it's an abbreviated way of expressing a more nuanced opinion.  There's a difference.  I express it, then clarify.  You pigeonhole it all back into black-and-white-land and declare it valid or invalid.  That's how you fail at big boy discussion.

 

Look, there's a rainbow, right?  It goes all the way from blue over here to red over there.  Yeah, all that crap on the rainbow is "colors", ain't it?  Astute observation, that.  However what I'm telling you is that my favorite color is blue, purple too, so I kinda prefer looking at wavelengths under 500 nm...  k?  And what I'm telling you is that all those colors that shift wayyyyyy red...I'm not as interested in them.  But yeah, they are all "colors", good point son, they just ain't MY colors.  Or will you tell me now that it's silly and ridiculous to hem and haw over colors, let's just accept every color as our favorite?  We are not entitled to have color preferences!

[Gothneo]

Crips and Bloods know the difference color makes     

[1701D]

Ok Wirlygig.

What youve really shown here is your unwillingness to accept my childish and binary opinions and my failings at neaunced conversation... Ive got under your skin and irritated you like a piece of fibreglass. I mean, look at how exasperated you have become in just two pages in a topic talking about Star Trek... how sad and how utterly pointless! Youve literally gone on talking about how you dont like the way I reply to people... well so what? Maybe just put me on ignore if you really cant stand me?

I think throughout all of this though, all weve really proven here is that no one ever wins an argument over the internet and that neither of us know one another well enough to fling insults about how we converse over the Atlantic.

[1701D]

I hate to say it, but compared to DISCO, The Orville already seems dated to me. I've enjoyed it and I think season 2 will be make or break for it... but it needs to find some way to be a bit more fresh and modern IMO. Maybe its because they had such a short season and its been out of view for weeks.
 
One things for sure, the last few episodes of DISCO have managed to recast how I view the season... and while I agree that each episode has great pacing... remember were being told an over-all story... and I think the pacing of the complete story is drawn out and overly complex, they have two episodes left to wrap up and close a bunch of subplots and holes... and they are making the whole thing back heavy to do it.... if they manage to to do it!
 
At the movement (and this may change in the next few episodes) I'm viewing the entirety of DISCO as a setup and execution of a Mirror Trek story... which while most are fun, I see them as a parody to Star Trek.

I totally agree.

I think it goes back to a comment I made earlier on; this show sees itself more important than it actually is. Its a show that really tries to be so intelligent and clever and actually is a little ham fisted with its eagerness to be relevant and a mirror to our society today. The Mirror Universe vs the Prime Universe and almost blurring the lines between the two by having Lorca as someone who had hidden himself among us and fooled everyone who strives for peace and exploration being an ideal way to parallel the world we live in today and the racism, bigotry, sexism and political termoil that exists. It definitely feels like a show that has some fantastic ideas and brilliant actors but theyve all been under served by a perhaps fraught schedule and the problems between Fuller and CBS. I think to be honest its done exceptionally well under the circumstances of such a troubled production and from what Ive seen in this season gives me high hopes for season 2, where i hope that the production enjoys some stability.

As for The Orville. Its totally a 90s TV series and goes with that but for me thats ok as for me that reminds me of the Star Trek I remember fondly.

I guess it would be nice if like yourself and Alteran have said, Star Trek was both a little bit Discovery and a little bit Orville and did mini, 2/3 episode arcs over the course of a season and was a show that didnt overreach itself in its ambition but rather delivered meaningful, well written stories that parallel our own world in more ways than just its obvious dislike of Trump and his band of criminals... I mean, his administration...

[MisterPL]

Can we all agree that DS9 is anti-Trek?

[Alteran195]

The only real Star Trek is TNG.

 

Everything else is anti-Trek, including Star Trek. 

[Gothneo]

Can we all agree that DS9 is anti-Trek?

 

Clearly you're either a Pah-wraith... or you're possessed by one! 

[Gothneo]

I guess it would be nice if like yourself and Alteran have said, Star Trek was both a little bit Discovery and a little bit Orville and did mini, 2/3 episode arcs over the course of a season and was a show that didnt overreach itself in its ambition but rather delivered meaningful, well written stories that parallel our own world in more ways than just its obvious dislike of Clyde and his ilk...

 

Actually... like you... many folks on a number of sites have pointed out that we often get Trek for our times, and DISCO seems to embrace the chaos of our times very nicely... and I know the chaos isn't limited to just our shores... so I wouldn't blame poor Clyde all by himself for our Trek woes!

[Whirlygig]

1701D, if you call that exasperation then you must not get out much. The degree of exasperation you are seeing comes because no matter how many times and ways I attempt to convey the point, in however many words I attempt in one sitting, from year to year you still fail to comprehend.

But calling someone "exasperated" is a nice tactic of diversion...a logical fallacy that an exasperated person must be wrong. You are good at logical fallacies which is the exact reason I fail repeatedly to get through...my own acknowledgment here is there are better ways to spend my time.

[Whirlygig]

Actually... like you... many folks on a number of sites have pointed out that we often get Trek for our times, and DISCO seems to embrace the chaos of our times very nicely...

Discovery walks a fine line. If I were to put on the rainbow mentioned earlier then personally I'd consider it some shade of green (and JJ red), which is why I was surprised, Gothneo, that you shifted it ultra-red! Most of the time I feel I am watching Star Trek. The rest of the time I am watching what the world thinks all entertainment should be like in the MCU age, complete with teal/orange color timing which they are a bit late to the game on. That phaser brawl was one example of this...usually Trek problems are solved with technology or tactics far in advance of blaster fights. Yeah it was the mirror universe but I bet we'll see similar sequences continue.

Trying to be an action event is where I think the chaos mainly comes from, but you may be right that the apocalyptic chaos reflects our unfortunate reality.

[1701D]

 
Actually... like you... many folks on a number of sites have pointed out that we often get Trek for our times, and DISCO seems to embrace the chaos of our times very nicely... and I know the chaos isn't limited to just our shores... so I wouldn't blame poor Clyde all by himself for our Trek woes!

Haha, oh Clyde, you orange buffoon. I think its certainly held a mirror up well to the problems faced by humanity. Maybe this is the perfect Trek then.

I think the difference between this Star Trek and the Star Trek of the past is that in TOS and TNG, those shows totally embraced the fact that we were better than the problems we faced in the real world. Discovery shows us how bloody awful our own world is and doesnt really offer up any kind of hopeful aspirational solution. Maybe its playing the long game in giving us that solution, certainly Sarus speech was optimistic and faithful to the vision of Roddenberry, but while TOS and TNG, VOY, ENT and even DS9 gave us some sence of hope after each episode. Discovery doesnt, its a great mirror on our own society but Im not sure the long game to hope and exploration is working all that well? However faithful this show is to our own world in which we live today, Trek should be about overcoming our own petty problems and hoping for a better future. Even in TOS, the message through the morality plays played out on screen gave us hope for a future, that no matter how bad things got, Clive is just an insignificant footnote, his North Korean pal is just as insignificant, and that Brexit was just a blip in a more prosperous future for the uk and the world when humanity begins to work together, prevailing stronger, more unified, and peaceful.

Thats why TOS was so groundbreaking. It didnt show us how bad things were, it showed us how great things WILL be... Discovery is definitely showing us how bad things are and theyre not really showing us how great things will be, I mean the 23rd Century in Discovery is a bleak bleak place.

[Gothneo]

Whirlygig... 

 

I was separating the soci-political aspects of Trek from the Sci-fi aspects... and for me, DISCOs technology mcguffins are really pretty fantastical, so just evaluating it that way I end up over in the red. 

 

This isn't to say TOS, TNG or other shows don't have some pretty fantastical technical mcguffins... but we know that most of them were based in either lack of understanding... so they *could* be possible... or they are used to keep production costs down... which is how the transporter came into being.

 

One thing TNG tried to do was hire actual technical writers and reviewers to get the tech more probable than not.

[Whirlygig]

It does have some fantastical ones, but for me the ultimate one is "red matter", like a 1st grader came home from school amd combined his favorite color with the word he learned at school that day...and then imagined it could go anywhere (take him back in time!) and do anything (blow up planets!)... let's not forget either about tribble blood bringing people back to life from radiation-induced total cellular decay...

At least there are better science words like "mycelial" in Discovery...seems a little bit closer to things dreamed up by TNG such as "chronitons" (for all your time travel needs!)...

I laughed a bit when they showed the mycelial network outside the window while they zoomed around in it...I was OK with that being how Stamets perceived it in his mind's eye but for everyone else to see it was a bit much... I also laughed when Orville looked down on 2-dimensional space and it was like a 90s circuit board Trapper Keeper...

[Gothneo]

Yeah I don't disagree... it is all subjective... and yes the red matter was really really bad, and sure biologically, there really are things like a myceial network (just not in space..) 

 

Actually... I think Orville got actual science closer to correct than any recent trek... even if the rendering was humorous. From that perspective its really enjoyable.

 

Normally... I see good sci-fi as coming up with quasi plausible mcguffins to move the real plot along... I guess if I capitulate that Star Trek isn't about space exploration or hard sci-fi so much as its a means of self reflection and inner exploration for us... then DISCO is right on target and I need to forget about all the wacky science and focus on only the social and political messages. 

 

Of course I can get much of that from sitcoms like My crazy ex girlfriend ;-)

[Destructor!!!]

1701D... you're putting The Expanse on the fantasy end of the spectrum?!

 

I think I'm done with this thread...

[Gothneo]

Yeah, I wouldn't put any Trek or Dr Who before the Martian... but hey... its his list... at least it gives you an insight to his view of fiction vs fantasy!

[Alteran195]

Some insight into Season 2:

http://www.slashfilm...son-2-tca-2018/

 

Will have more away missions, and more nods to TOS canon. 

 

it will also tackle themes of faith vs science, which may not be for everyone but works may work well in our day and age. 

 

They also said it wont be a war story, so that will definitely be wrapping up somehow by the end of season 1.