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What if Kes had Stayed?


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#21 Artistix

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 10:40 PM


Just wanted to apologise to Chimp for going off like that...I understand what you were saying, & I have slightly edited my post above to try & make my own opinion clearer. Forgive me peoples...much like the Vulcans, I'm not good with emotions!!


Voyager took the look at humanity to it's limits. These particular characters are often fan favourites. So I guess they assumed it would be a winning combination to have nearly every character on the show being the 'eyes of humanity'...

Didn't really work. Neelix, Kes, B'Elanna & Tuvok did not seem to get the same loves as the likes of Spock, Data, Worf & Odo.
However Seven & The Doctor did mange to find bigger followings.

If Kes had stayed on Voyager....that would have been interesting. Kes never would have been a huge focus. Perhaps Chakotay, Harry & co. may have stepped up to become beefier, more interesting characters had they not taken a backseat to Seven. Or perhaps it would have simply been the Janeway & Doctor show.

I will never complain about Seven though...or the Doctor. Awesome characters.

I know people say Wang was in fear of losing his job over Jennifer....but there is just no way they would have had a near majority female cast on Voyager. I really don't think a Star Trek series will every be majority female....or majority African American...or majority anyone other than caucassian males. Straying OT again....sorry.

#22 A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 12:02 AM

QUOTE(Artistix @ Jul 18 2007, 06:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Perhaps you should have asked exactly WHAT I meant...

Do you honestly think I was promoting petophilia???


No, just so we're clear, advocating pedophilia is not what I thought you meant. I wanted to get away without saying this outright, but I can see the implications that my dancing around the issue have ended up being far worse, so here goes. My understanding was that you were either intentionally confusing and/or just plain missing the point of VF's post so that you could bring up some unrelated gripe, and to be completely honest, I still think that. The reason I fail to see the relevance of your examples is because both of your examples have nothing to do with the pedopheliac aspect of the relationship, which is what I understood to be the only issue that VF was talking about. You took what he said and twisted it for your own (completely different) argument just so you could disagree with him.... or so it seems to me.... My post was about forcing you to address VF's actual post if you were going to disagree with him, without outright calling you on it. The reason I said anything about discussion of the age of consent is not to imply that you would want it lowered or anything, but rather as a clumsy acknowledgement that there are plenty of people well OVER 18 who still don't have, it seems, the proper emotional development for such things... that emotional as well as physical development is a highly individualized process, and that 18 was just the legal stake in the ground, so to speak. In hindsight, that entire post was a huge error, and at this point I can do nothing but offer to YOU my most sincere apologies. I wish I could take the whole thing back, but what's done is done. Again, apologies to you, Artistix, and the entire board.

Now as they said at the end of a Simpson's episode... "Let us never speak of this again..."

As for Kes staying, I was glad she went, not because I hated the character, but rather because I wanted SOMEONE to go. I thought Voyager's cast was too bloated as it was. Unfortunately, from that perspective, they wrecked it by bringing in 7. So from the end of the pilot we had Kes, Neelix, Doc, B'Elanna and Tuvok all as outsiders to humanity with only B'Elanna and Doc having really useful ship's function that could be utilized well week in and week out. Kes became the Doc's nurse, Neelix was Annoyance officer, and Tuvok became very practiced at saying "Intruder Alert"... (Kinda reminds me of William T. "Red Alert!" Riker) and dramatically there didn't seem to be a need for them, to me anyway...

How would Kes have changed the show? I think hardly at all. It would have become the Janeway/Doctor show and there would have been an eventual mini-arc about trying to save Kes from her natural lifespan limitations. She probably would have gotten much more screen time due to her proximity to the Doc, and hence more development as a character. I see her as becoming "Geordi" to Doc's "Data" and in the end, poignantly dies 3/4 of the way through season 7, satisfied that her task of making the Doc more human was so successful.

#23 JulesLuvsShinzon

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 02:10 AM

QUOTE(Artistix @ Jul 19 2007, 05:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know people say Wang was in fear of losing his job over Jennifer....but there is just no way they would have had a near majority female cast on Voyager. I really don't think a Star Trek series will every be majority female....or majority African American...or majority anyone other than caucassian males. Straying OT again....sorry.


Of course, black, white, red, or yellow, women make up half of the population and most TV shows don't reflect that reality.

#24 Shinzon

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 12:54 PM

As per someone's earlier statement, I actually think that in Seasons 1-4 Chakotay had a pretty beefy part. They gave Beltran a lot to do, and I find him to be a great character. A moral compas, a man who has beliefs and sticks to them at all costs. A nice counterpoint to Janeway in that both of them are headstrong, decisive, but he gets his "basis" for his beliefs from his inner-self whereas Janeway gets her beliefs from Starfleet protocol and so forth.

I always thought it was silly that all of the ex-Maquis characters except for him never seemed to care what the Cardassians did to their people. Had that been a real ship, I doubt that once Seska had been identified as a Cardassian she would have stayed alive for long. Those people lived for eliminating the Cardassians, yet no one shot her. (Seska in and of herself was a really unlikely character though. The liklihood of TWO government spies on one vessel... Ugh.)

I think these two had a lot of potential, but his popularity never really caught on, and as the series progressed, the writers seemed to enjoy focussing on the three most popular characters: Janeway, Seven, and the Doctor. Even the more interesting characters such as Tuvok and Tom Paris were forced to play second fiddle.

Ah Voyager, so flawed, yet so loveable and enjoyable.

#25 Gothneo

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 01:36 PM

I always found B'Ellana sexy in a sado-masochitic way.

speaking of which...

One of Nelix's greatest moments was in season 7, Prophecy, where courts a female Klingon.



#26 Wildcard

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 12:35 PM

QUOTE(Gothneo @ Jul 18 2007, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ahh! Thanks. I had not thought of it from that perpective. I can agree... especially when you look at the fact she was replaced with 7 of 9... who as a human, who lost her humanity can comment on humanity while trying to reclame it.

Each of those that you mention has a different take. B'Elanna: 1/2 human struggles to integrate humanity (much like Spock) The Dr. gives the technologies view (much like Data), Tuvok the well acquianted alien view, and Neelix and Kess both had the same "Getting to Know you" take.

In the end though, with such a short life-span, I'm surprised that Kess wouldn't have moved on sooner rather then later.

Ahh, what I find interesting is one of the reasons for the creation of 7of9 was that VOY was "missing it's 'Spock' character" as stated by Rick Berman in the VOY DVD season 4 interviews. Thus why 7's journey WAS one of a human who had lost her humanity and was having to rediscover it.

And yes, while Neelix and Kes both shared the "getting to know you" take (good coin btw wink.gif ), I think Kes was underutilized in the "getting to know the universe as a maturing youth" perspective...the same way Harry was missing out for most of VOY. Granted Harry eventually got to do more, but I think it would have been interesting had they taken the spin of Harry's maturing vs. Kes' more accelerated maturing. Also Kes could have provided much more of the "lower decks" perspective than what they used her for. Granted Neelix could have as well, but I think a lot more characters would have been more readily able to confide in Kes' quite listening take over Neelix's "you've got a problem? Let's through a party to fix it!" take (not that there's anything wrong with that in certain cases).

I think someone had already mentioned the prospect of turning Kes into a "recurring" character over a starring character...and quite frankly I think that would have been ok. It's not like she was utilized in the 3 main seasons she was in to begin with, so from a financial aspect for the production it would have been acceptable change to me. Now whether Jenifer would have taken the pay cut, I don't know...but it would have contracturally allowed her more freedom to pursue other projects rather than be tied down to Paramounts becon call. (If someone needs me to explain that further, just ask...it's a legality aspect of acting work).

I always expected Kes to turn into a combination of Guinan, Troi, and Crusher (with aspects of Ezri Dax) thrown in for the VOY universe. Alas, that potential never happened. sad.gif

#27 Gothneo

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 04:54 PM

QUOTE(Wildcard @ Jul 20 2007, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ahh, what I find interesting is one of the reasons for the creation of 7of9 was that VOY was "missing it's 'Spock' character" as stated by Rick Berman in the VOY DVD season 4 interviews. Thus why 7's journey WAS one of a human who had lost her humanity and was having to rediscover it.


Interesting. B'Ellana was the character that I thought more in-line with a Spock Struggling with-my-humanity kind of thing. granted it took awhile for them to develop that aspect of her character, but like Spock, she had to constantly deal with the conflicting aspects of being of two species.

Yeah, they keep saying 7 is Borg, not human... but frankly it never played well. If Picard, Janeway, etc all can be assimilated and returned to normality then so could 7 of 9. I just have a hard time believing that the Borg were so inefficient as to not "upgrade" each new drone for the complete function they were to perform. Bottom line, 7 was a huge continuity problem in the trek universe for me, so I just have to suspend it where she's concerned.


#28 Artistix

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 06:05 PM

QUOTE(A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees @ Jul 19 2007, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Again, apologies to you, Artistix, and the entire board.


You don't need to apologise.

Only I do.

Communication breakdown...lets put it at that....you guys were talking pedophilia, I was talking age differences of mature age people...which I thought was kinda obvious, but instead made people think I missed the boat on the points VF was trying to make. And trust me, whilst I cannot boast any kind of intelligence...I am no fool.

I should have CLEARLY stated in my post that I had left the area of pedophilia & had moved into my gripe with the worlds hatred of mature age couples with large age difference. I apologise.

I hardly came into this thread to rant about my own gripes...I brought up my 'mature love' as I thought it was relevant...I didn't mean to burden you with my life experience!! I just thought it was relevant....& explained my examples you were so confused by. Most people here know I can't seem to keep my mind on one track.

I do understand what you are both saying....it's just hard for me to see a relationship that was soo cute & innocent to me, turned into something soo horrifying...

I'm not sure what facts we have to even say that Kes & Neelix ever had sex...though I could be very wrong there.

And we also know near nothing (that I recall) about the emotional & sexual maturation of Ocampa.

Kinda reminds me of Trip Tucker harrassing an alien woman he thought was suffocating her child, yet she was not at all...but after finding out the truth, Trip was still hostile!

In any case...Neelix & Kes going at it is not something I'd like to think about!! biggrin.gif

And don't worry...I will never EVER be bringing my personal life experiences onto the board again.

#29 VulcanFanatic

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 07:10 AM

QUOTE(Artistix @ Jul 20 2007, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And we also know near nothing (that I recall) about the emotional & sexual maturation of Ocampa.

According to the the Star Trek encyclopedia, Ocampan females reach sexual maturation at 4 to 5 years. Kes did go through a premature partial "Elogium" or sexual maturation at age 2 due to being exposed to electrophoretic activity caused by the "swarm", which turned out to be a false Elogium, but that was still after she had been with Neelix for some time. While different races of beings may do things differently, it would be logical to believe those races would wait until sexual maturation before taking a mate. Neelix and Kes got together when she was only 1 year old which would seem unlikely to be permitted in her culture just as we wouldnt want a 30 year old man with a 10 year old girl or younger in our culture.

#30 Chalksquared

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE(VulcanFanatic @ Jul 21 2007, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
According to the the Star Trek encyclopedia, Ocampan females reach sexual maturation at 4 to 5 years.



Again, we are talking about an alien culture and an alien species with alien physiology. Has anyone stopped for a second and realized that we are trying to match all this up with OUR beliefs and OUR physiology.

Sexual maturation might be when they are able to reproduce. Maybe the Ocampa's brains have matured by the age of 1, but their reproductive organs have not.


#31 JulesLuvsShinzon

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 03:25 AM

QUOTE(Gothneo @ Jul 20 2007, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, they keep saying 7 is Borg, not human... but frankly it never played well. If Picard, Janeway, etc all can be assimilated and returned to normality then so could 7 of 9.


Actually that was explained! Picard and Janeway were assimilated as adults and only for a relatively short time. Anneka ~ as she was known ~ was assimilated as a child and spent considerable time in a Borg "maturation chamber". 7of 9 had spent most of her life with Borg implants and most of her formative years. The EMH explained that her body was now totally dependent on Borg technology for survival ~ hence the regeneration chamber. Of course, if 7's "borgification" was reversable then the character wouldn't have had much mileage at all! wink.gif




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