Jump to content


Photo

Solo


  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#41 VulcanFanatic

VulcanFanatic

    Leonard Nimoy fan

  • Members
  • 3,165 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southeastern North Carolina

Posted 02 July 2018 - 08:30 PM

I think changes are coming to Disney's Star Wars franchise. They have caused such a rift in the fandom that Kathleen Kennedy may out of a job soon and changes made to try and bring back the fans they have lost. On the Star Trek front, Discovery's showrunners are now fired and new Star Trek series that look to appeal to long time fans may be in the works. Social justice warrior agenda driven series and movies don't get the ticket sales and merchandise sales or ratings that keep these studios in business, they want money. Say what you will, but there are a great deal of people that won't watch Discovery or Solo because they are sick of the SJW crap.When they start making these shows without the underlying or even blatent SJW crap, they will start attracting the fandoms back to these great franchises again and have continued successes.

#42 Gothneo

Gothneo

    Knows Paul Bunyan

  • Members
  • 5,753 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land of sky Blue Oxen

Posted 03 July 2018 - 04:58 AM

I guess I don't see any of what you see... I try and judge a show by its writing, acting, story telling, cinematography, etc. I could care less if they make an entire trilogy using nothing but company of female gender identifying communist LBGQ actors. If they can do that and tell a story that captures my interest and its well done. who cares. The common theme you see me complain about with DISCO.. .Kelvin Trek.. and Star Wars... is poor writing poor story telling... and actually... though I'm a huge fan of the sci-fi genre... I hate to admit it but most efforts are pretty poor.

 

The thing is... you have no idea if they fixed the issue your upset about because you haven't seen it. and if you keep boycotting everything demanding that they change it.. you won't see the thing you want when they change it! That, I think, was Ron Howards point... by all measurable means he was brought in to right the ship and deliver  something the fans would enjoy... and it is enjoyable. 



#43 Damon1984

Damon1984

    I know what a Pog is.

  • Members
  • 116 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 July 2018 - 06:28 AM

That "SWJ-Crap" has always been a part of the respective franchises. Leia was kind of a feminist icon and the prequels were a big fat middlefinger to republicans and the Bush-era. And Star Trek... I don't even know where to begin here. You could take Starfleet, rename it SJW-Fleet, and it would fit like a glove (thankfully).

 

I'd like to think, that people like Nimoy-Fan aren't really enraged by the SJW-stuff, but rather by the fact that nowadays, hollywood has developed a habit of hiding behind _shallow_ SJW-stuff to deflect criticism or/and to generate media attention and a narrative of good guys and bad guys - not within their stories, but within the fandom! Because Buzz and taking offense seems to be more important today than good storytelling.

 

Like when they made a big deal out of the gay-couple in Discovery, but then they lazily killed one of them off, while shouting, how progressive they where and that anyone, who did not like their show, must be a homophobe or whatever. Meanwhile, on the Orville, there is also a gay couple (one of them is even a tanssexual) and no one bats an eye. That makes me hopful, that people really don't have a problem with inclusion.

 

That being said, I think a lot of fans are waaaaaaaaayyyyy out of line lately. They work themselves up into a frenzy and they start shouting stuff that makes me feel ashamed for being a fan and it's tiresome.

 

The Force Awakens was a shallow retelling of "A new Hope". The Last Jedi was just a mess (while trying to retell "The Empire strikes back".) Rogue One was (half) a mess. ALL of these movies looked absolutely bland. Apart from Rey, there was not a single design that made me say "yeah, that's Star Wars" (well, okay, I'll give Rogue One fared a lot better here, but it was a war movie and therefore not especially colourful). The trailer to Solo just looked like more of the same brown/grey-sludge, and I think that's why it bombed. Not because of tiny SJW-Elements.

 

Honestly. You really don't have to drag "SJW-Crap" into the discussion to trash Star Wars and Discovery.

 

It's just sad that the term "SJW" has become such a bad reputation. I really don't get what could possibly be wrong about social justice.



#44 Alteran195

Alteran195

    Their ACTION FIGURES, not dolls!!

  • Members
  • 3,461 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 03 July 2018 - 07:37 AM

I just cant understand how any Star Trek fan can say they don't want "SJW" themes in Star Trek. That's pretty much saying you don't want Trek to be Star Trek, just because you no longer agree with the modern progressive politics and themes of equality regardless of race, gender, and sexual orientation.

 

That is a you problem, not a problem with Star Trek. 



#45 VulcanFanatic

VulcanFanatic

    Leonard Nimoy fan

  • Members
  • 3,165 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southeastern North Carolina

Posted 03 July 2018 - 08:37 AM

Say what you want but the vast majority of longtime fans of both franchises are not supporting the SJW agenda driven "crap" that's being put out now. Those same long time fans are typically the ones with the deep pockets to spend money on tickets and merchandise and don't lose interest in a movie over night like the typical person that supports the SJW "crap" that typically still lives with Mommy and Daddy and has nothing in their pockets to spend on merchandise and movies.Which consumer would win out in the long run with movie studios? Yes the liberal studios love their politics but they love their money more. Eventually they either make movies that make money or they lose money and close up shop.

#46 Damon1984

Damon1984

    I know what a Pog is.

  • Members
  • 116 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 July 2018 - 09:24 AM

Say what you want but the vast majority of longtime fans of both franchises are not supporting the SJW agenda driven "crap" that's being put out now.

 

That doesn't answer the question Alteran and I have raised. Are Starfleet Officers not SJWs? Was Kirk not a feminist? Was Kirk not a fighter for peace and justice? Was Spock not supportive of him? Was Picard not a diplomat? I'd really love to understand your point - if there is one. Help me here.

 

Those same long time fans are typically the ones with the deep pockets to spend money on tickets and merchandise and don't lose interest in a movie over night like the typical person that supports the SJW "crap" that typically still lives with Mommy and Daddy and has nothing in their pockets to spend on merchandise and movies.Which consumer would win out in the long run with movie studios?

 

There's certainly some truth to that. But to be fair, it's not as if it's the fault of the younger generation. They come out of school and they are deeply in depth. I can see why the elite prefers it that way. If you have to fight to stay above the water, you don't have time to scrutinize the elite. I can also see, why the younger generation would like to change that. I applaud them for that. I guess you are the "i had to fight, so you have to fight as well"-type?



#47 Alteran195

Alteran195

    Their ACTION FIGURES, not dolls!!

  • Members
  • 3,461 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 03 July 2018 - 09:39 AM

 

That doesn't answer the question Alteran and I have raised. Are Starfleet Officers not SJWs? Was Kirk not a feminist? Was Kirk not a fighter for peace and justice? Was Spock not supportive of him? Was Picard not a diplomat? I'd really love to understand your point - if there is one. Help me here.

Star Trek hasn't really pushed  gay equality yet, I think that's a big part of the issue based on past comments they've made. 

 

They didn't handle it perfectly in Discovery, but I didn't feel like they treated Stamets and Culbers relationship any different than a heterosexual relationship would be treated, which was probably the point. No one pointed it out, or acted like it was out of place, which is how it should be.

 

The death was not a great move, and I don't think it really did much to propel the story anywhere, but that's a different issue. 

 

Star Trek has always pushed for civil rights and equal treatment of everyone, always. Having an issue with there being a gay couple on Discovery, and pushing their equal rights movement is no different than the people having an issue with Uhura being a black woman on the bridge, and pushing the Civil Rights movement of the 60's. 

 

Like I said, Star Trek isn't the issue, its the close minded fans whose political views no longer align with the liberal, progressive ones that Star Trek has always had. 



#48 Damon1984

Damon1984

    I know what a Pog is.

  • Members
  • 116 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 July 2018 - 09:57 AM

Star Trek hasn't really pushed  gay equality yet, I think that's a big part of the issue based on past comments they've made. [/Quote]

 

Is that really still such a big deal? Granted, they only grazed gay-themes here and there (the Episode with Riker and Soren, the Episode with Dax and... that other woman (I don't remember the name), but... come on. Starfleets Mission is to go out there, to seek new life and new civilizations. Starfleet Officers are, in my mind, inherently curios. To new Ideas, and certainly to new... experiences? Do people really believe that stops at talking with each other? We have seen humans bonking aliens. We have seen inter...racial relationships like Dax and Worf. So, Humans having fun with aliens is less of a problem than humans of the same gender having fun? I don't believe that. Also, like I said, there is still the Orville. I haven't seen a single complaint about Bortus and Klyden. Hell, even Mercer slept with another guy! None of that disgruntled Star Trek Fans that fled Discovery seem to mind.

 

They didn't handle it perfectly in Discovery, but I didn't feel like they treated Stamets and Culbers relationship any different than a heterosexual relationship would be treated, which was probably the point. No one pointed it out, or acted like it was out of place, which is how it should be.

 

Absolutely. However, they pointed it out pretty heavily in the advertising campaign. Not that Paramount did anything different with Kate Mulgrew as first female Captain, or Avery Brooks as first black Commander. That stuff was heavily advertised as well. Then again, these shows delivered pretty good content (okay, maybe not Voyager ;) :P).That's why I thought, that people unhappy with the quality of Discovery just lashed blindly out on anything they could think of, and the first thing they could think of was what was advertised.

 

I really hoped it was just a sign of... laziness combined with angriness.

 

Like I said, Star Trek isn't the issue, its the close minded fans whose political views no longer align with the liberal, progressive ones that Star Trek has always had.

 

Yeah but... that's what I don't get: if you change your political views, if you think this progressive "crap" is nothing for you anymore... surely you would turn your back on ALL of Star Trek then? 8[



#49 Alteran195

Alteran195

    Their ACTION FIGURES, not dolls!!

  • Members
  • 3,461 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 03 July 2018 - 10:09 AM



 

Is that really still such a big deal? Granted, they only grazed gay-themes here and there (the Episode with Riker and Soren, the Episode with Dax and... that other woman (I don't remember the name), but... come on. Starfleets Mission is to go out there, to seek new life and new civilizations. Starfleet Officers are, in my mind, inherently curios. To new Ideas, and certainly to new... experiences? Do people really believe that stops at talking with each other? We have seen humans bonking aliens. We have seen inter...racial relationships like Dax and Worf. So, Humans having fun with aliens is less of a problem than humans of the same gender having fun? I don't believe that. Also, like I said, there is still the Orville. I haven't seen a single complaint about Bortus and Klyden. Hell, even Mercer slept with another guy! None of that disgruntled Star Trek Fans that fled Discovery seem to mind.

To some people it is.

 

 



Absolutely. However, they pointed it out pretty heavily in the advertising campaign. Not that Paramount did anything different with Kate Mulgrew as first female Captain, or Avery Brooks as first black Commander. That stuff was heavily advertised as well. Then again, these shows delivered pretty good content (okay, maybe not Voyager ;) :P).That's why I thought, that people unhappy with the quality of Discovery just lashed blindly out on anything they could think of, kinda just repeating catch-phrases they heard on twitter (SWJ, Millenial, Liberal...).

 

 

A marketing campaign isn't the same as in universe treatment, which is what I was referring to. In universe their relationship wasn't shown as being strange or out of place, it was just another relationship between people, which is how it should be treated in the real world. 

 

Beyond did the same thing with Sulu's homosexuality, marketing talked it up but the movie itself showed it to just be a small moment that was a normal thing like any other relationship. 

 

 



Yeah but... that's what I don't get: if you change your political views, if you think this progressive "crap" is nothing for you anymore... surely you would turn your back on ALL of Star Trek then? 8[

Couldn't answer this, I just know Star Trek really hasn't changed when it comes to their political views. 



#50 MisterPL

MisterPL

    Yes the Troi figures hair worries me.

  • Members
  • 940 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:42 AM

A marketing campaign isn't the same as in universe treatment, which is what I was referring to. In universe their relationship wasn't shown as being strange or out of place, it was just another relationship between people, which is how it should be treated in the real world. 

 

Beyond did the same thing with Sulu's homosexuality, marketing talked it up but the movie itself showed it to just be a small moment that was a normal thing like any other relationship. 

 

In all fairness, marketing didn't talk it up. John Cho revealed it to the Herald Sun in Australia and what was not supposed to be a big deal was promoted as a big deal by the media. It seems that, if anything, Paramount would have preferred to keep the revelation quiet, especially given how homophobic "fans" reacted to the news.



#51 djc242

djc242

    I know FHC by name.

  • Members
  • 585 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA

Posted 03 July 2018 - 05:20 PM

I think Trek missed an opportunity in having an LGBTQ character in the mix during the Berman years. Had things been up to Gene and a lot of the writers Im sure there would have been. The futuristic setting would have been perfect to show such a character in a very non-threatening way. Dax did have some good moments that skimmed the surface of gender issues. Im sure there were a few other moments along the way as well.

#52 Gothneo

Gothneo

    Knows Paul Bunyan

  • Members
  • 5,753 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land of sky Blue Oxen

Posted 04 July 2018 - 07:22 PM

Honestly. You really don't have to drag "SJW-Crap" into the discussion to trash Star Wars and Discovery.

My point exactly... if your main focus is good coherent writing and story telling it shouldn't matter.

 

I just cant understand how any Star Trek fan can say they don't want "SJW" themes in Star Trek. That's pretty much saying you don't want Trek to be Star Trek, just because you no longer agree with the modern progressive politics and themes of equality regardless of race, gender, and sexual orientation.

Personally I don't get adding the whole "Warrior" label afterwards... a lot of sci-fi includes social morals, rights and wrongs... justice... and as you point out thats a large aspect of all Trek. 

 

 Yes the liberal studios love their politics but they love their money more.

Some imagined fallacy in that statement I think...  I can assure you that studios make movies based on the potential to make money... the politics are all about the green backs. In the past few years their has been a marked increase in "Christian" belief based films done by the studios.... and its there attempt to meet a demand... Noah, Ben Hur., Samson are all examples of pretty good sized budget films that are basically all remakes from the golden age of cinema... they made many a bible based movie then too... sadly most of those older movies aren't very good... and much of the new offerings aren't very memorable either... they seem to struggle at the box office... yet lots of "Fans" are demanding these type of movies. So I don't think its liberal vs conservative... its just about making money. We see the "fickle fandom" in all major franchised properties... the fans seem to say they want one thing but when they get it they say they don't like it. there are always exceptions... but the majority of producers directors and studios want a hit... and again thats what Ron Howard was saying.

 

Honestly the one genre that always makes money is Horror. Cheap to make and everyone always wants to take a date to them so they jump in their arms.

 

They didn't handle it perfectly in Discovery, but I didn't feel like they treated Stamets and Culbers relationship any different than a heterosexual relationship would be treated, which was probably the point. No one pointed it out, or acted like it was out of place, which is how it should be.

 

The death was not a great move, and I don't think it really did much to propel the story anywhere, but that's a different issue. 

 

Well.. I think it is the issue! As you imply its the poor writing!

 

 It seems that, if anything, Paramount would have preferred to keep the revelation quiet, especially given how homophobic "fans" reacted to the news.

Again... that whole scene... which was basically just an unspoken revelation... meant nothing to the overall plot... if he had shown a photo of a female partner it would still have been pretty meaningless and awkward IMO... and thats what it was to me.. awkward writing. 



#53 Gothneo

Gothneo

    Knows Paul Bunyan

  • Members
  • 5,753 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land of sky Blue Oxen

Posted 01 October 2018 - 03:20 AM

They have caused such a rift in the fandom that Kathleen Kennedy may out of a job soon... 

 

Kennedy is in for at least another 3 years... She just signed fresh ink on a new contract. Depending on which blog you read thats good or bad... but they all do agree that the franchise has made good money under her watch, Solo being the exception, but then we've discussed why that is. 
 



#54 VulcanFanatic

VulcanFanatic

    Leonard Nimoy fan

  • Members
  • 3,165 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southeastern North Carolina

Posted 01 October 2018 - 11:13 AM

They may end up regretting that but they can do what they want to with their golden goose. There are a lot of people that are upset about the Last Jedi and they took it out on Solo. They may take it out on the next movie too so I hope Disney didn't shoot themselves in the foot by keeping Kennedy on.

#55 Gothneo

Gothneo

    Knows Paul Bunyan

  • Members
  • 5,753 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land of sky Blue Oxen

Posted 01 October 2018 - 04:37 PM

Maybe. But I guess we'll have to see. I also read that R. Johnson is not only slated to direct the next installment.. but will do an entire trilogy... so chances are if you don't like his writing / directing, you should just give up on it for the next decade at least. 

 

Personally I'm a bit mixed. I liked Looper... but I do agree that the Last Jedi seemed like a mess.

 

I think I also saw that they are going to do something called "Lord Vader: A Star Wars Story", which might be good. 



#56 VulcanFanatic

VulcanFanatic

    Leonard Nimoy fan

  • Members
  • 3,165 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southeastern North Carolina

Posted 01 October 2018 - 05:26 PM

Solo was the first Star Wars movie I didn't even bother to go see, since 1977. Last Jedi was an awful movie in my opinion and I am disenchanted with that entire franchise now. I used to be a rabid fan and collector of Star Wars memorabilia but won't spend another dime on Star Wars until they turn it around after the disasters they have put out in the last few years. I don't expect that they will change anything so I guess I am done with Star Wars. I can spend my money on other things.

#57 djc242

djc242

    I know FHC by name.

  • Members
  • 585 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA

Posted 02 October 2018 - 03:55 AM

Gothneo, JJ Abrams is doing the next movie.

#58 Gothneo

Gothneo

    Knows Paul Bunyan

  • Members
  • 5,753 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land of sky Blue Oxen

Posted 02 October 2018 - 04:53 AM

Djc242... I'm admittedly a bit confused as I thought IMDB said Johnson was directing the next one... I thought this trilogy was supposed to be JJ's baby... but it seems like he did the 1st one and then kinda bowed out (from writing / directing)... kinda like what he did with Star Trek... which makes me think that JJ doesn't seriously want to write or Direct...  he clearly just wants to produce. He probably would like Kennedy's job. 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users