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Original Series gets CGI'd


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#41 Cpt. Phil T. Berns

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 02:41 PM

QUOTE(DavAnthony @ Sep 23 2006, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Interesting I always thought there was a rather apparent film quality difference from the TNG shots of the actors to when they had special effect shots of the Ships. I wonder if this use of video had something to do with it. For instance the actors were filmed with film but then transerred over to video but were the special effects shot in video right off the bat?


Both the actors and the models (ships etc.) were shot on film. Those filmstrips that came out of the camera were then transfered onto video. Post production was then done on video. But let's not forget shots with actors on the set (except those with transporter effects and phaserbeams) are just that, one shot. A shot of a ship is actually the mix of several different layers (a black matt + a shot of the exterior of the ship + a shot of the inside lights of the ship + a shot of the naccelles lights + a starfield + a planet etc.) Today the mixing of those shots can be done digitally inside a computer (that is if they don't opt for CGI alltogether). Back in the 80's they had to do that with analogue video tape recorders. So immagine using 3 video recorders, let's call them deck A; deck B and deck C. You put the videocapture of the starfield in deck A and the video capture of the planet in deck B. Mix those shots with a mixing console and record the mix with deck C. Then you take the tape out of deckt C and put it into deck A. In deck B you put the video capture of the black matt. Again you mix and record the mix onto a new tape in deck C. Then you take that new tape out of deck C and put it into deck A. In deck B you put the videocapture of the exterior of the ship. Again you mix and record the mix on a new tape in deck C....
Now remember that analogue tapes added noise to the recording. So by the time your shot is complete it will be quite a bit noisy and it will have lost a lot of it's sharpness. That's why those shots were so different from the shots with actors.


QUOTE(knightone @ Sep 23 2006, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To answer the question about the phaser/torpedo effects in BOT, it looks like they kept the torpedo sound effect, but made the visual effect into a short burst blue phaser beam.


THX

QUOTE(DavAnthony @ Sep 23 2006, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why is the government mandating here in the U.S. that T.V.'s go High Def? I know the government can get carried away with laws from time to time but these seems absurd.


I think the reason is a vicious circle. Why would TV networks invest in HD equipement when most people don't have a HD TV set. And why would the people buy HD sets when none of the networks have HD broadcasts. So if the government doesn't do anything about it, no one will.

BTW: Come and live in Europe for a time. Here the governments involve themselfs with just about anything. Perhaps the reason why the US government became involved is that if they don't Europe will win the HD race.

#42 pickard

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 07:20 PM

QUOTE(Cpt. Phil T. Berns @ Sep 23 2006, 03:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This may come as a shock to most of you, but TOS will always look better in HD presentation than any other Trek series, notably TNG. Here's the why.

Starting in 1987 with TNG, although the episodes were shot on film, the post production was done on regular definition broadcast quality VIDEO TAPE! That means that unless they find the actual film that was in the camera and do the entire post production over, there will be no HD presentations of TNG, DS9, VOY and the first couple of seasons of ENT. And to make matters even worse, at the time of the first couple of seasons of TNG, those video tapes weren't even digital! That's why on DVD TOS (along with other old series like Galactica and knightrider) looks so much better than the first two seasons of TNG. The resolution of DVD, although not as good as HD, is still a lot better than broadcast quality video of the 80's and 90's! Film on the other hand has an even better resolution than HD! For the record, I'm not talking about the model photography (that was awful in TOS). I'm talking about the regular actors-on-the-set photography.


That didn't come as a shock to me. However, I don't know if I agree 100%.

Yes, TNG and some subsequent Trek was shot on inferior videotape.

However, time has had an effect on the TOS footage. Time and preservation of the source material can't be ruled out as factors.

You mentioned Knight Rider. I happened to watch HD Knight Rider yesterday on the Universal HD network. As much as it was cleaned up, it didn't look 1/2 as good as my Voyager DVDs.

Also, I wouldn't put it past CBS/Paramount to redo postproduction on the original TNG footage. They're already doing more with TOS than anyone seriously expected.

#43 Cpt. Phil T. Berns

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 01:40 AM

QUOTE(pickard @ Sep 24 2006, 03:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You mentioned Knight Rider. I happened to watch HD Knight Rider yesterday on the Universal HD network. As much as it was cleaned up, it didn't look 1/2 as good as my Voyager DVDs.


Indeed. But the effect time has on film is only a slight decoloration. Scratches and so aren't an effect of time, but are instead an effect of usage.

Analogue video however gets more noise (grain) as time goes by.

Now you're comparing KnightRider to VOY. Let's not forget VOY was produced on DIGITAL video, unlike the first couple of years of TNG.

And yet, I have DS9 DVDs and they don't look as good as my Battlestar Galactica (1979) DVDs.

QUOTE(pickard @ Sep 24 2006, 03:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, I wouldn't put it past CBS/Paramount to redo postproduction on the original TNG footage. They're already doing more with TOS than anyone seriously expected.


If they still have those rushes.

#44 pickard

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 07:13 AM

QUOTE(Cpt. Phil T. Berns @ Sep 24 2006, 03:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Indeed. But the effect time has on film is only a slight decoloration. Scratches and so aren't an effect of time, but are instead an effect of usage.

Analogue video however gets more noise (grain) as time goes by.


Usage (of something that gets use) is at least partly a function of time, I'd say.

QUOTE
Now you're comparing KnightRider to VOY. Let's not forget VOY was produced on DIGITAL video, unlike the first couple of years of TNG.

And yet, I have DS9 DVDs and they don't look as good as my Battlestar Galactica (1979) DVDs.

As long as VOY is preserved, I think we'll all be happy with that. smile.gif

QUOTE
If they still have those rushes.


Sure. And that's a big if.

#45 pickard

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 08:12 AM

I'm watching Devil in the Dark SE right now.

The matte painting of the mining station was updated. It's very nice-looking. There are lights, smoke and motion.

The horta burning through rock to appear in front of Kirk was greatly improved.

The Horta itself wasn't touched.

Establishing orbiting ship shots are updated, same as last week. These are really nice. I think I forgot (or never noticed) how crude these looked. It's nice to see the 1701 orbit a planet without a black line surrounding the ship.

Like here:



I had the City DVD playing, because I wonder what, if anything, they'll change on the Guardian's appearance.

At least, they should fix the shot of McCoy running into the Guardian, so that the display is on when he leaps.


#46 DavAnthony

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 09:08 AM

I would of liked it if they had changed the horta. That thing look terrible.

#47 Cpt. Phil T. Berns

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 09:35 AM

QUOTE(pickard @ Sep 24 2006, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Usage (of something that gets use) is at least partly a function of time, I'd say.


I wouldn't say that. Master reels or master tapes are locked into a vault and never used. Those reels 20 years later only have a slight decoloration which can almost be completely avoided by controling temperature and humidity inside the vault. The tapes inside the vault however get more and more noise because of the earth's gravitational pull, even if they are never played again. The only way to avoid that would be to place the magnetically sealed vault inside a satelite that is orbiting the planet. But I don't think Paramount will ever do that! wink.gif

#48 pickard

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 09:57 AM

QUOTE(Cpt. Phil T. Berns @ Sep 24 2006, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wouldn't say that. Master reels or master tapes are locked into a vault and never used.


I understand that, which is why added the parenthetical "of something that gets use".

#49 JMW326

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 03:29 PM

I have heard that some stations are airing these in certain places but I can't seem to find any in my area.

#50 DavAnthony

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 03:52 PM

JMW, I had to put in the name of the actual episode. Everytime I put in Star Trek I got a bunch of listing but nothing that I was looking for.

When I put in Balance of Terror I finally found a listing.

Dave

#51 JMW326

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 07:55 AM

Thanks, I will try that.

#52 Tiberius

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 08:33 AM

This weekend you should look for The Naked Now. Next weekend I cant find the regular block of channels, it is either The City on the Edge of Tomorrow, or not showing that weekend, perhaps you can find Miri finally. Is that a long weekend in US too?

#53 Cpt. Phil T. Berns

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 09:51 AM

QUOTE(Tiberius @ Sep 29 2006, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Next weekend I cant find the regular block of channels, it is either The City on the Edge of Tomorrow, or not showing that weekend, perhaps you can find Miri finally.


"The City on the Edge of Tomorrow", is that a new one? Did they use digital technology to mix "The City on the Edge of Forever" with "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" and "Return to Tomorrow" into one storyline. That must be neat! wink.gif

#54 Tiberius

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 10:33 AM

o_O sorry, had an appointment. Couldnt review my post...
Thanks Bernsie, good save, or was it a jibe...
COEOF is the eppy

#55 Gothneo

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 10:57 AM

I wish these were broadcast in my area sad.gif oh well, eventually they will sell them on DVD and I can get them then.

#56 Gothneo

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 07:15 PM

wow! one was actually broadcast in my area! I just saw Naked Time. All I can say is Bravo! If you didn't know it was CGI'd you might have missed it, the changes were subtle and perfect IMO. They did nothing to detract from the original.

#57 VulcanFanatic

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 08:20 PM

What changes were made in "Naked time" ? I just watched it on my dvd set so im interested to know how it was enhanced.

#58 Gothneo

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 09:44 PM

They were really subtle. Pretty much just view screen shots of the Planet, The Ship it's self, and then the shots of the controls when they are going backwards through time.

The Planet shots were kept true to the color and shots, just a bit more detail. The "Chronomoter" shots were purlye mechanical dials and were replaced by a digital readout, but it still had a very retro look. that's about all I could pick out.

Honestly, it's nice, but the main rason I could see getting newer versions is that they would be in HD and much crisper to watch.

#59 Cpt. Phil T. Berns

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 01:33 AM

Too bad, they missed the opportunity to do with TOS what Lucas did to Star Wars eps 4, 5 and 6.

It would have been great to see completely different shots for the starship exteriors.

#60 DeepSix

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 02:35 AM

I think it was a good way to get some middle ground. They changed it enough so that the effects wouldn't look terrible on HD, but kept it close enough that it wouldn't interfere with the unique and very original look and feel of the series. Considering how vocal the Star Wars fans were over the changes made to the original trilogy, I don't think the people behind the HD make-over wanted to take that route.




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