243 replies to this topic

[Chalksquared]

QUOTE(JulesLuvsShinzon @ Mar 9 2007, 05:42 PM)
Now you're just being silly! Ther were many people who joined fandom with those shows.


Unfortunately. But they are free to leave the fandom now.

As are you now...

[A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees]

To all those that complained when Voyager and Enterprise were on the air, saying that they did not follow contiunuity or did not live up to the "Star Trek ideal" thank you because you essentially sealed the deal on any new Star Trek.

Not to be contrarian, but I totally reject that, if only for one very simple reason. Those fans of which you speak are a very, very small number of people. You know what? The dirty little secret that most of those fans won't tell you is that the ones who stick by their pledge to boycot the movie/show are even a minority of those people...that they went to go see those movies anyway!

First Contact, widely regarded as the best "TNG" Movie, flies in the face of existing continuity by even having a Borg Queen. Best of Both Worlds, widely regarded as one of the best episodes, flies in the face of Q Who, where the Borg were introduced. Remember Q's explanation of them?

"...the Borg is the ultimate user. They're not interested in political conquest, wealth, or power as you know it. They're interested in your ship, its technology. They've identified it as something they can consume." When we see them again, they don't want technology, they want people!

The only way that continuity could have killed trek is if the creative staff decided that keeping continuity was more important than telling a good story, and unfortunately not knowing the stories they never told, we'll never definitively know the answer to that.

What killed "TNG era" Star Trek isn't continuity, it was creative burnout coupled with the general public simply moving on, and the public DOES move on. If they don't then why isn't Phil Collins or "Genesis" making hit after hit? All their songs sounded the same! Not bad, but the SAME!) I'm sure there are plenty of other examples that my puny brain just can't think of, but you get the point.

Just take Nemesis, for example. Forget continuity, let's just look at the story:

#1 - TWOK already did this story and did it better. Plotwise, it was a blatant rip-off.

#2 - Shinzon is a great military leader during the Dominion war. He commands a huge ship with who knows how many weapons and shields. It should wipe the floor with Enterprise. Why does this movie even happen the way it does? He could've just beamed Picard off, blew up Enterprise, and cointinued onto Earth. He was planning to conquer the Federation anyway, so why not eliminate them? It would have saved him from his "disease" much faster, but if he really wanted to, he could have toyed with Picard all he wanted to on the way to Earth.

#3 - taking your point of exploring humanity, what questions were discussed? Nature vs. Nurture? Wid it have anything significant to say about the debate? I didn't find it, but is there even a debate about it? Cloning? It was mrely a means to create Shinzon - an opportunity to say something meaningful about it wss wasted.

#4 - Unclear storytelling (or at least people not paying attention to the movie). It took me 2 viewings of the movie to finally figure out why Shinzon wanted to destroy Earth. I heard this on many other internet sites to the effect of "if Shinzon was tortured by Romulans, why does he want to blow up Earth?!" The simple answer is that he didn't really care about Earth much one way or the other. He promised the Romulans who supported him that he would conquer the Federation and deploying the weapon on Earth was the way he could do that. He wanted to conquer the Romulans, which he did, but to keep that power he had to uphold his end of the deal. The upshot is, this could have been conveyed much more effectively than it was.

This new reboot may be exactly what the franchise needs, and it may be great or it may be horrible. We'll know in a couple of years, but I don't begrudge them trying. No matter what, it will not be "Star Trek" as I knew/know it. I intend to consider it apart from the rest of the Star Trek timeline, but for all I know, it may be BETTER than what came before. We simply don't know.

[The_Donster]

The old Star Trek is both already gone and will never be gone. Paramount has said that continuing the series is a no go. Box office numbers suggest that any new movies using the same continuity and same charcaters WILL fail. There are not enough open minded fans to make Star Trek successful. We should all be blaming ourselves for this. To all those that complained when Voyager and Enterprise were on the air, saying that they did not follow contiunuity or did not live up to the "Star Trek ideal" thank you because you essentially sealed the deal on any new Star Trek.

Not to be contrarian, but I totally reject that, if only for one very simple reason. Those fans of which you speak are a very, very small number of people. You know what? The dirty little secret that most of those fans won't tell you is that the ones who stick by their pledge to boycot the movie/show are even a minority of those people...that they went to go see those movies anyway!

Just wanted to let you folks know I merged this with the discussion already in progress While these discussions can always get heated, let's try to keep it civil. Remember, you came to our forum because of the negativity of other forums. So let's make sure that negativity stays there and doesn't get spread in your new home. Otherwise what was the point of moving, if the negative is going to follow you. I'm not coming down on anyone, just trying to keep things positive

[Chalksquared]

Just wanted to let you folks know I merged this with the discussion already in progress While these discussions can always get heated, let's try to keep it civil. Remember, you came to our forum because of the negativity of other forums. So let's make sure that negativity stays there and doesn't get spread in your new home. Otherwise what was the point of moving, if the negative is going to follow you. I'm not coming down on anyone, just trying to keep things positive

Donster is so right.

The AA forum has gotten downright ugly and it's all due to this movie that is a little less than TWO YEARS away!

If the movie stinks then we can complain. If it's great then those who supported it can say "I told you so!" to those who didn't, BUT it is so far away why even worry about it?!?

They are making a new Trek movie. Some are all for it, some are dead set against it. The End. There's nothing we can do about it, so let's just go with the flow and see what happens.

[knightone]

It's good to see people get so passionate about this, though. It shows just how much each of us cares about Trek in our own way. Debates and discussions are just what forums like this are for.

Just remember: Keep it nice.

Think before you post and treat others in a civil way. This is a debate and a discussion, not an argument and definitely not an all-out brawl. Keep your heads cool and make your posts in an intelligent and cogent manner. Name calling and any other types of low blows and pot shots will not be tolerated.

[A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees]

Think before you post and treat others in a civil way. This is a debate and a discussion, not an argument and definitely not an all-out brawl. Keep your heads cool and make your posts in an intelligent and cogent manner. Name calling and any other types of low blows and pot shots will not be tolerated.

If I in any way crossed a line with my post, I apologize. It was meant as a rebuttal, not an attack, on thehsbr's opinion or anyone else's. The last thing I want to do is "draw the battle lines" and make people take sides. If my post was offensive to anyone, especially thehsbr, I apologize.

[knightone]

No, not at all. Not from anything I saw at least. No one has crossed the line so far. But, with the situation over at the AA forums, I just wanted to set some ground rules here before anything got out of hand. For the most part, everyone here is respectful of each other. But a discussion like this can get out of hand very quickly. So far so good, but just wanted to make sure it stayed that way. Getting heated is fine, just don't fight dirty and definitely don't make things personal.

[TheHSBR]

I completely agree with most of what you say Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees. The point of my statement was that the old trek is gone and is not coming back no matter how much that can upset us. The other point I was trying to make is that Star Trek was never truly about technology, continuity, or scifi. Its original mission was to point out the glaring problems within our own society. People liked it because of the other stuff but it became a phenomenon because of its message. There are a ton of problems within our society that need to be dealt with by Star Trek. If a reboot will do that...I'm in.

[FHC]

I would like to make a simple post to say that I agree with The Donster and Knightone 100% I will not have threads that get out of hand or have to be the first thing that the staff have to read every time they log into the forum. This forum is here for everyones enjoyment not as a place to argue a point of view trying to change someones mind you are not going to change.

In simple DO NOT break rule #13 or the thread goes bye bye.

This post is aimed at no one it comes from my years of running forums and seeing how some topics can get out of hand. I hope that my post here is not taken in the wrong way as I am not the least bit upset with anyone I just want the forum here to be enjoyable to everyone.

Thanks,
FHC

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

I can only hope this new movie will make people completely forget the TNG-DS9-VOY arc

Now you're just being silly! Ther were many people who joined fandom with those shows.

Unfortunately. But they are free to leave the fandom now.

As are you now...

Now don't get me wrong. I didn't mean this in a bad way. All I was trying to say is that after TUC, the Original Cast fans were offered a choice. Enjoy the 24th century or leave the fandom. All the moaning in the world couldn't make Paramount change it's mind about that. No way they were going to give us Star Trek: Excelsior. And when they created ENT, the fans were given a choice again. Enjoy the 22nd century or leave the fandom. Again, all the moaning in the world didn't make Paramount change their minds about it, no way they were going to give us Star Trek: Titan. Unfortunately ENT wasn't as big a success as it should have been (meaning the fans chose leaving the franchise over enjoying the 22nd century) and the franchise was stopped. Now Paramount says "Have you learned your lesson yet? There will never be an Excelsior nor a Titan series, the original timeline, the TNG-DS9-VOY timeline and the ENT timeline are not to be continued. Enjoy the reboot or leave the franchise".

So either enjoy this new movie (which will hopefully bring in new fans, a thing TNG did but ENT failed to do) or leave the franchise. And if too many of us leave the franchise and this reboot doesn't bring new fans in, this movie will be the end of Star Trek.

But look at the Bond franchise. All of the old fans were outraged by the choice of Daniel Graig and the reboot direction they were taking. Yet Casino Royale didn't flop. Instead it made the franchise bigger than ever. Let's hope this new Star Trek movie can accomplish the same.

In short, what I was trying to say is that the TNG-era fans must learn (the way we TOS fans did in the 1990's) that with Trek, you either enjoy what you get or get nothing anymore. Complaining about the new direction will get you nowhere.

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

^^^Mr Berns, you and I both know that the Excelsior movie was never going to happen in the same way and for the same reason that the Titan movie was a non-starter!

I'm not quite getting why there is a question of anyone leaving fandom. It was never the case that people who hated TNG at its birth had to 'leave' fandom, so why is there this urge for naysayers to leave now? This kind of talk divides the fanbase, when after seven different incarnations and ten movies, even those who reject the next movie will still have plenty to talk about for years and years.

(Hsbr) The old Star Trek is both already gone and will never be gone. Paramount has said that continuing the series is a no go. Box office numbers suggest that any new movies using the same continuity and same charcaters WILL fail. There are not enough open minded fans to make Star Trek successful. We should all be blaming ourselves for this. To all those that complained when Voyager and Enterprise were on the air, saying that they did not follow contiunuity or did not live up to the "Star Trek ideal" thank you because you essentially sealed the deal on any new Star Trek.
If this then is the case and the old Trek is dead, a new reboot is the only option. For me Star Trek is not what happened 400 years ago, what Kirk said to Scotty in episode 14 and how that affects episode 17 of TNG. Thats nitpicking and is what gave "Star Trek" fans a bad label. Star Trek is about retelling current moral issues and setting them in a fantasy future. Its about recognizing the limits of humans but also finding ways to transcend them. This is the essence of Star Trek.
In regards to the more violence, who cares. We know what sells. Every blockbuster movie has huge explosions big battles and what not. My concern is the storytelling. If explosions substitute character development and morality tales, then I will be upset. We all like exciting adventures to spice up movies. Look at the favorite Trek movie that most people love....Wrath of Khan. It had plenty of explosions but still had a good story. Lets recreate that.
Finally the old Trek is never dead. We have the DVDs, we have the reruns. If you dont like the new film simply watch them. There are countless hours to watch. Read the books still set in continuity. The old Trek will never die in all media outlets there will always be someone trying to push things to the future whether it be in cartoons, books, or comics.
The bottom line is we must all resign ourselves to knowing that Star Trek is going to continue in this fashion and theres nothing we can do about it. The question then becomes do we want to have a new reimagined Star Trek experience or do we want to cry about the loss of a dear friend? We all must continue on with our lives and accept that life changes.....

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the fanbase. Sorry, but 'blaming the fans' has been the fashion when the fanbse has shown itself to be capable of being discerning and rejecting what is sub-standard. Don't blame the fans for having taste, I would blame the studio for producing poor product.

Over the last twenty years the fanbase has accepted enormous changes from the ending of TOS. The fanbase has been incredibly flexible in this. The sticking point now is that the reboot lacks imagination and is just the same old process that has been used with other worn out franchises with an enormous varient in the outcome.

In case you hadn't known. Paramount have already tried to remake TWOK. They tried to extrapolate what made TWOK a great Trek movie and produced Nemesis.

Going back and remaking is not the answer. Reimagining might be, but only if it's a reimagining outside of the box, and isn't like the usual blockbuster fayre. Trek movies have had explosions galore. It's not about pyrotechnics. It's not about stars and it's not about comic book violence. Trek doesn't need anything to 'spice' it up. It just needs to find some original storylines and good characters of all ages, sexes, and that speak to the widest possible audience, like NuBSG has managed to do.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

^^^Mr Berns, you and I both know that the Excelsior movie was never going to happen in the same way and for the same reason that the Titan movie was a non-starter!

I kept hoping to get an Excelsior series for a very long time. Ams I'm sure some people out there are still hoping to get a Titan series.

I'm not quite getting why there is a question of anyone leaving fandom. It was never the case that people who hated TNG at its birth had to 'leave' fandom, so why is there this urge for naysayers to leave now? This kind of talk divides the fanbase, when after seven different incarnations and ten movies, even those who reject the next movie will still have plenty to talk about for years and years.

You missunderstand. It's not like they HAD TO leave the fanbase, it's that they were FREE TO leave the fanbase if they no longer liked what they got. Such is the nature with everything in this consumer world. If you don't like the sigarettes anymore you're free to stop smoking. If you don't like the internet anymore, you're free to stop surfing. If you don't like to shave anymore, you're free to grow a beard.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the fanbase. Sorry, but 'blaming the fans' has been the fashion when the fanbse has shown itself to be capable of being discerning and rejecting what is sub-standard. Don't blame the fans for having taste, I would blame the studio for producing poor product.

Only for few, like you yourself, it has been about the quality of the show. Most don't realize, but they only see the bad parts of the show because they didn't like the direction it was taking. Many objected to ENT because it was set in Star Trek's past.

Trek movies have had explosions galore. It's not about pyrotechnics. It's not about stars and it's not about comic book violence. Trek doesn't need anything to 'spice' it up. It just needs to find some original storylines and good characters of all ages, sexes, and that speak to the widest possible audience, like NuBSG has managed to do.

If you were talking about a TV series, you would be right. And God knows I would prefere a new TV series to a movie. But movies are different from TV shows. In order for them to get the people to leave their home and come to the theater, they have to offer people something they can never get on a TV budget. And you can get wonderful actors and writers on a TV budget these days. So in order for a movie to be successful, it needs explosions galores, pyrotechnics and comic book violence.

But what Star Trek needs most is a way to untie the writers hands to those 40 years of continuity. That's why a reboot is the only way to go.

Did you know that before they made Batman Begins, they were planning for a complete departure of the known elements of Batman? Bruce Wayne was going to be homeless, "Big Al" (Alfred) was going to be a black tall, basketballplayerlike car mechanic, etc.

Fortunately they saw in time that the perpose of a reboot is erase your continuity, not to dramatically change what is familiar. Batman Begins, together with the comic book Man of Steel (1980's reboot of the Superman comic book franchise, by John Byrne) are the best reboots I've ever seen so far. They erased their continuity, modernised some things but stayed very familiar. That's the way to go for Star Trek. That's what I've been saying for more than 5 years. And that seems to be what we're going to get.

[TheHSBR]

For the record Season 4 of Enterprise may have been the most entertaining season of all the Trek series. With the Mirror Universe, the Augments, Spiner, etc...it answered many questions while still having excitment. I believe that Star Trek should be about storytelling, morality, and the pursuit of humans transcending their own limitations.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

For the record Season 4 of Enterprise may have been the most entertaining season of all the Trek series. With the Mirror Universe, the Augments, Spiner, etc...it answered many questions while still having excitment. I believe that Star Trek should be about storytelling, morality, and the pursuit of humans transcending their own limitations.

Indeed, season 4 of Enterprise was very enterteining. But, it's new producer (Many Coto) couldn't undo the events of season 3 (T'pol's addiction, the death of Trip's sister, the fact that T'pol and Trip slept together and the complications that gave, ...) and the temporal cold war arc was ended in an unsatisfactory way (who was the future guy, how come after the events of the first two episodes those guys from the future didn't start their temporal cold war over, ...)

All in all, season 4 was great, but it could have been better if only season 3 never took place and if only thge temporal cold war arc was handled well.

[slayerone76]

This is what I expect to see if Matt Damon were really cast in the new Trek movie ...

Matt Damon - Youtube

[TheHSBR]

Indeed, season 4 of Enterprise was very enterteining. But, it's new producer (Many Coto) couldn't undo the events of season 3 (T'pol's addiction, the death of Trip's sister, the fact that T'pol and Trip slept together and the complications that gave, ...) and the temporal cold war arc was ended in an unsatisfactory way (who was the future guy, how come after the events of the first two episodes those guys from the future didn't start their temporal cold war over, ...)

All in all, season 4 was great, but it could have been better if only season 3 never took place and if only thge temporal cold war arc was handled well.

I am one of the many that did not watch Enterprise on broadcast but rather on DVD. I fault myself for this but at the time in my life Star Trek was not a priority for me. I agree that the Temporal Cold War was a disaster. I hated the fact that a storyline being built for 2 seasons was just dropped with no explanation. However I thought the other issues were very timely and very TOS. The addiction was a relevant piece commenting on Americas obsession with drugs both legal and illegal. I also thought the depiction of Trips sister was truly a great way to portray how many Americans felt after 9/11. I loved the symbolism and message of the entire Xindi saga. The fact that Archer did not just blast the Xindi really gave me hope for Americans as a whole. Even though I thought season 4 was the best of all the series I also thought season 3 lived up to Gene Roddenberrys ideal of Star Trek being a commentary on the real world (of all the series). Being an American History and Sociology teacher, I find Star Trek to be a gold mine of commentary on the 1960s. I believe Enterprise will do the same for the 2000s.

[pickard]

I'm still holding out hope for a Titan movie.

Paramount, like most of the major studios, is really pushing its DVD division with direct-to-DVD movies based on their successful theatrical franchises. I read an article, I think it was in Variety, recently which mentioned Trek as a likely candidate. A Titan movie makes sense. There's a built-in audience, even if that audience isn't anywhere near enough to support a major motion picture. With just a few TNG stars (Frakes, Sirtis, Wheaton) and maybe a castmember from one of the other shows (Tuvok?), it'd be pretty cheap to make. And if they could get Frakes to direct, it'd have a chance of being pretty damn good. Get Coto to write it, and that'd be even better.

Not that I think it'll happen, but I hope it does.

[Cpt. Phil T. Berns]

I'm still holding out hope for a Titan movie.

I know what you're going through pal. I have been holding out hope for an Excelsior series or movie for a long, long time. But by now all hope of that is lost. You'll realize such hope is futile very soon too.

[pickard]

I know what you're going through pal. I have been holding out hope for an Excelsior series or movie for a long, long time. But by now all hope of that is lost. You'll realize such hope is futile very soon too.

The industry is not what it was after the final TOS movie.

Again, I'm not saying it'll happen, but I see it as a possibility.

I never understood why UPN didn't make an event out of an Excelsior TV-movie. It wouldn't have cost that much more than two VOY or ENT episodes, and there's no doubt the ratings would've been great, by their standards.

[Sybeck1]

Hard to believe they are talking a theater released movie after Nemesis failed at the box office so much. Here we had known actors playing known characters and only some of the members of Star Trek boards show up to see it. Why not a miniseries like BSG to see if interest could be garnered for a new TV show?

There were 12 Constitution class ships launched in different directions into the galaxy. Why not a movie about those? They don't have to cross paths with the Enterprise, just like Exeter does.

Maybe at least with Abrams we might get Tom Cruise as Kirk since he has directed in the past. Maybe they could make Star Trek:The Wrath of Xenu?