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New Star Trek Series starring Patrick Stewart


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#221 MisterPL

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Posted 31 March 2022 - 07:46 AM

I think you're right, Whirly. After the latest episode it looks like they're tossing almost everything into the mix. It's quite a potpourri. 

 

And I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't immediately recognize that VFX callback during Picard's departure at the end of Episode 4. It was so obvious when they reappeared in Episode 5. That was clever.



#222 MisterPL

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Posted 06 April 2022 - 10:22 AM

It's been announced that Jonathan Frakes, Brent Spiner, LeVar Burton, Marina Sirtis, Michael Dorn, and Gates McFadden will all appear in the third season of Picard:)

 

In other news, expect a particularly morose season of The Ready Room with Wil Wheaton.  :(



#223 Whirlygig

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Posted 06 April 2022 - 11:10 PM

Honestly there is so much going on at this point that I am starting to think that this is all just a Q-induced fever dream in Picard's mind. If it's all in his head then suddenly all the weirdness like "10 Forward St." and characters looking exactly like other characters makes actual sense. And they have an easy reset button at the end. Please let that be what happens? Then all sins can be forgiven...

Certainly exciting to have the full cast in one season. If only our dreams had come true from the outset instead of the final season.

#224 Whirlygig

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Posted 08 April 2022 - 08:22 AM

Just watched the newest episode.

With every episode I feel worse and worse about this season and more and more sorry for the new blood being forced to act out bad fanfic on screen.

Some lows were hit for me this episode (Two of One) that I don't think there is enough runway left to recover from.

I feel dumb even trying to pick out something to complain about at this point because there is so much wrong that any example in isolation may not seem that bad, but taken together they make a complete s#!tshow, and who has time to itemize them all in a thread? Not I...here's one thing that ground my gears though...(apart from the obvious completely campy, nonsensical, over the top thing that happened)...

Spoiler


Can these things be hand-wave Trek-splained away? Yeah sure, even I can think of explanations. But why must I do that every 2.5 seconds on modern Trek? On classic Trek we sometimes had to explain things away but once we did we were left with a general feeling of "that sure was clever/powerful/moving/entertaining" that made it worthwhile, but in modern Trek all we are awarded with for our efforts is a feeling of "ok...well that was dumb/pointless".

#225 MisterPL

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Posted 15 April 2022 - 03:26 PM

Knowing that a third season is already in production, I feel like the second season is just a bridge to it. (And in my experience, these bridges can be tedious and not very satisfying).

 

There's SO much Picard-building (even RE-building) that I'm hopeful it pays off then. At the moment, my daughter and I go from exchanging quizzical glances with furrowed brows to just stopping in the middle of a scene to ask, "WTF just happened?!"



#226 Whirlygig

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Posted 19 April 2022 - 01:14 PM

For me, the announcement about S3 brought mixed emotions.

 

I'm excited to see Geordi and Worf again...

What a shame it will be if Picard ends up with Laris and not Crusher...

 

But the knowledge that they have been developing/shooting it side-by-side with S2 makes me worried...if S2 feels like a rushed turd, why would I expect anything different on S3?

 

Spoiler



#227 MisterPL

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Posted 20 April 2022 - 01:41 PM

I'm waiting for this guy to show up. 

 

TNG has always been keen on having performers playing different characters. From Brent Spiner and Denise Crosby to Michael Dorn and now Orla Brady and Isa Briones, it's like the ensemble cast of an anthology series. (Soong genes are ridiculously strong!)



#228 Whirlygig

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Posted 20 April 2022 - 07:00 PM

This guy gets me:
https://www.thegamer...is-garbage/amp/

#229 MisterPL

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Posted 21 April 2022 - 07:03 AM

 

The author certainly lacks self-awareness, unless he's shooting for irony. I'm guessing he grew up watching TNG when he was quite young.

 

The show definitely has its flaws but Andy Kelly doesn't seem to know what he wanted from it. For example, he leads with suggesting that the show was infallible simply by including so many "beloved characters." Then he bashes it for pandering. Pick a lane, Andy. Better yet, watch The Orville on Hulu, since you're as stuck in the past as Jean-Luc.  :P 



#230 Whirlygig

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Posted 25 April 2022 - 08:13 PM

You can include beloved characters without pandering though...

I think he is spot on about the fact that everyone on the show seems miserable, when that is a polar opposite to how we were meant to view the future in TNG. I've said this before myself, in the form of saying this doesn't seem like a future I'd want to live in or a crew I'd want to serve with anymore. We've now got 2 smokers on the main cast, and as he notes a bunch of apparent alcoholics too...lol.

Spoiler


#231 Whirlygig

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Posted 28 April 2022 - 08:42 AM

Ranking Trek 3.0 (if pre-JJ is 1.0, JJ is 2.0, and post-JJ prime universe is 3.0)...

Prodigy S1
Disco S2
Picard S1
Lower S2
Lower S1
Disco S4
Picard S2
Disco S3
Disco S1

#232 MisterPL

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Posted 28 April 2022 - 02:34 PM

There had better be one hell of a reset button at the end of this season. It's reminding me more and more of Back to the Future Part II, and I didn't find that particularly satisfying. I'm getting a little tired of time travelers talking about how stealthy they need to be so they don't affect their timeline only to run around like bulls in a china shop.

 

That said, I tend to operate under the assumption that anytime they jump into the past, they're creating a new timeline. (In my head canon there's one where Picard puts together a team to search for Ambassador Spock in the Kelvin Universe, but I digress...)

 

The low point for the episode was

Spoiler

 

I'm also not sure why

Spoiler

 

I didn't go into this expecting to see Picard from TNG or even the films. He's not the same as he was then but I don't find him unrecognizable either. My dad once pointed out that the grandfather I knew was not the father he grew up with. Experience changes a person and Jean-Luc is no exception. He's experienced quite a bit.

So while I understand why critics might find Picard out of character, I suspect they're be disappointed if he hadn't changed at all after all this time.

 

As for the rest of the cast, it reminds me of every other incarnation of Star Trek that took 40 or 50 episodes to flesh out supporting players.



#233 Whirlygig

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Posted 28 April 2022 - 04:52 PM

Why in the 24th century would

Spoiler

 

What I don't understand after this latest episode is

Spoiler

 

Picard doesn't have to be the same character.  However, there are limits to the amount of difference the audience will accept without being shown why.



#234 Alex

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Posted 02 May 2022 - 02:41 AM

For me, the announcement about S3 brought mixed emotions.

 

(T)he knowledge that they have been developing/shooting it side-by-side with S2 makes me worried...if S2 feels like a rushed turd, why would I expect anything different on S3?

The answer to this is actually pretty simple, but could be summarized as "For the same reason you weren't expecting a rushed turd after S1." Basically, every season of Picard has had/will have a different showrunner. Season One was helmed by Michael Chabon, who had justifiable reasons for leaving the show, namely that he was getting an original show of his own green–lit and had the opportunity to work with his wife on said new series. This was basically a once in a lifetime career–advancing opportunity and he would have been insane not to take it.

 

In contrast, Season Two has been helmed by a combination of Akiva Goldsman and Terry Matalas as co–Showrunners. It's important to note however that Terry Matalas effectively left the production of Season Two a little over halfway through in order to serve as the sole showrunner on Season Three. I should note that while I've been following Season Two, I have not personally watched it yet as I refuse to do so on what is effectively a 15 year old TV set with dead pixels and a slew of other issues. (I also refuse to buy a cheap TV knowing that whatever replaces this thing will easily be something I'm staring at for another 15 years. Once I have a decent TV set though, I'm going to be catching up on Picard immediately.) This is, as far as I'm concerned, honestly good news for Season Three and bad news for Season Two. My impression of Akiva Goldsman is that he may be "the problem" on the production crew, or at least a fairly significant part of it.

 

Go look at Goldsman's credits if you don't believe me, among his "steaming stinkers" to borrow a term Brannon Braga used to describe VGR's Threshold, are 1996's A Time to Kill and 1997's Batman & Robin, both of which won Golden Raspberry Awards for how awful they were. Okay, so maybe he's gotten better over time, right? Well in 2001 he did win some actual awards for A Beautiful Mind, and 2005 he won a BAFTA for Cinderella Man, but his more recent credits are... well let's just say less impressive. He was a writer in 2015 on The Divergent Series: Insurgent, a film that's arguably a weak middle of a fairly strong trilogy, even knowing that Lionsgate botched part two of the two part third film by not releasing it. In 2017, he was credited for the story on Transformers: The Last Knight, which was nominated for, but ultimately didn't "win," you guessed it, another Golden Raspberry Award. Basically, this guy did two really good films and a whole lot of garbage, and that kind of record is typically indicative of someone whose output is usually garbage. (Surround yourself with people significantly better than you are and even a dead weight can look like a genius.)

 

As for Trek, he has writing credits in DSC on The Vulcan Hello, Will You Take My Hand, and New Eden, and directing credits on Context is for Kings and Will You Take My Hand?, with the only one of those that doesn't rub me the wrong way at some point being New Eden.

 

Terry Matalas on the other hand is the opposite of Akiva Goldsman. For starters, he got his start on Trek and in TV working on Star Trek: Voyager and Star Trek: Enterprise, and wrote two scripts for the latter. He also wrote for Terra Nova, which was one of those "awesome shows that fans knew would only last one season." He basically created the SyFy TV adaptation of 12 Monkeys, (as in he pitched an original story to the production company behind 12 Monkeys, they told him they wanted to do a 12 Monkeys TV series, and the solution was to just "find and replace" the character names to match those from 12 Monkeys, basically the same thing that happened to Caprica) and that ran for four successful seasons. Christopher Lloyd's casting in that show was also his doing. He had a couple other projects between that and Picard, including showrunner of season four of the MacGuyver reboot, but he knows Trek and understands competent storytelling. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some of the issues with Season Two are the result of him not being involved as a result of having to focus on Season Three, nor would I be surprised if Paramount put him in charge of Season Three specifically so Goldsman wouldn't be. I really hope Matalas gets to do more with Trek if Season Three is what I'm expecting from him.

 

 

Knowing that a third season is already in production, I feel like the second season is just a bridge to it. (And in my experience, these bridges can be tedious and not very satisfying).

 

There's SO much Picard-building (even RE-building) that I'm hopeful it pays off then. At the moment, my daughter and I go from exchanging quizzical glances with furrowed brows to just stopping in the middle of a scene to ask, "WTF just happened?!"

This is basically my viewpoint based on what I know about S2 and about the idea that Picard was always intended to be a three season show; three movie trilogy or three act play, the plan was always three and done, even if they entertained the idea of more seasons.

 

Personally, I'm really hoping for a Star Trek: Stargazer series featuring the rest of the Picard cast when the show ends. I mean, you basically would get to do what DS9 tried to do and ultimately failed at, and what Picard kind of tried to do with limited success as well, which is to "start in the third season." DS9's producers admitted they didn't pull that off successfully, and while I think it worked for Picard, I know others disagree and feel the characters' relationships seemed "forced" at first because we had just met them. Well now they wouldn't be forced, we'd care about them, and you basically get the benefit of a new show, (complete with another California Tax Credit if you do it right,) and the benefit of a seasoned cast. I mean with everything else that's getting greenlit, this seems like it's too good to pass up, and I would be extremely disappointed if we don't get such a series.



#235 Whirlygig

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Posted 05 May 2022 - 10:13 PM

Great points as always, Alex, and lots of info I hadn't dug to learn myself!


Well, it's over. I spent the first half of the finale thinking...what? And I spent the last quarter thinking...what?

Spoiler


Alright I'm done.

#236 Destructor!!!

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Posted 20 May 2022 - 06:52 PM

I don't think there are any patches or tweaks that could have saved this season - it was flawed to the core.

Whirly, you're spot on about how current-day social and mental health issues have no place in the 24th century outside of allegory - the whole appeal of Star Trek's future is based in its optimism, that humans can evolve our sensibilities, so to speak. "Show, don't tell" applies here too. Characters kept talking about how they were saving a bright future, but we haven't seen that bright future in Picard. The human future we've seen in PIC is one of xenophobia, wealth inequality, addiction, conspiracy theories, spousal abuse piss-poor mental healthcare, etc...

I feel like Picard's character has been assassinated. He used to be a man who went to the stars motivated by awe and wonder, a burning curiosity, and a rock solid moral compass. Now he's someone who wears all those traits like a mask to keep from facing a retconned tragedy that makes no sense. A coward who ran to space and didn't face his demons for 90 years.

If they wanted a tragedy to provide scope to explore Picard's character, how about one that was... um... comparatively recent perhaps? One that was... um... impactful on core values of his character perhaps? One that might have... um... undermined his post-traumatic recovery from Borg assimilation perhaps?

I'm talking about Robert and Rene dying in Generations. They died in a fire. "These things happen" Picard said. "No sir, these things don't happen" said Troi, because, in the 24th century, people should not die in fires. But Robert, like their father, was a luddite. Refusing to get a replicator. Insisting on traditional vintnering methods. Apparently refusing even a fire suppression net. THAT's an avenue to explore trauma, paternal relationships, the loss of legacy.

It has long been my head canon that what some people see as a drastic mischaracterisation of Picard in the TNG movies all traces back to that moment in Generations when Picard gets the letter from Marie after Worf's promotion ceremony on the holodeck. The people who rebuilt him after BOBW die, and then he loses the Enterprise, and then the Borg return. He unravels in First Contact because Robert and Rene are dead. His link to his past, his link to their parents, and his reassurance that the family name would go on. And then, per PIC season 1, he lost faith in Starfleet and resigned. After which he took over the Chateau. The last of the Picards.

Where's Marie? Where's the site of the fire?
I have this scene in my head where someone asks why there's a burnt-out barn in one corner of the property and Picard brushes it off, saying he doesn't go there. And then by the end of the season, he has demolished the barn, or restored it, or something.

But no, let's give Sir Patrick editorial control so he can get his pet causes in the show. Let's rehome a pitbull (I actually love that), let's bait-and-switch on spousal abuse and parental mental illness, undercutting the impact of both issues and implying that nothing will improve on either front in the next 400 years. Let's ignore that this is something that undermines his whole character and damages the credibility of every counsellor he's ever spoken to. Let's ignore that if he had had a role in letting his mother hang herself, that would have been something Robert would have held over him for his entire life. Let's justify it by saying that's what's been holding him back from a committed relationship - not, I dunno, professionalism & dedication (cause we don't know what those are)... no, just more scared little boy bullshit.

Ugh, I could keep ranting forever. It's all just so slapdash and undercooked.

#237 Alex

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 01:39 AM

Honestly there is so much going on at this point that I am starting to think that this is all just a Q-induced fever dream in Picard's mind. If it's all in his head then suddenly all the weirdness like "10 Forward St." and characters looking exactly like other characters makes actual sense. And they have an easy reset button at the end. Please let that be what happens? Then all sins can be forgiven...

So I see you weren't satisfied that it looks like

Spoiler

Don't get me wrong, this isn't season one or what it looks like season three is shaping up to be, but given that Sir Patrick didn't want to explore life as an artificial life form and that necessitated some tricky rewrites combined with COVID screwing with production, I can't really be as harsh on this season as I would be under normal circumstances. I also think Akiva Goldsman was clearly focused on SNW instead of this, and that probably lead to at least part of this mess, especially once Terry Matalas was basically handed season three and had to focus on that. You basically wound up with a show that had two showrunners who were tackling bigger projects on the messy middle of a trilogy.

 

Whirly, you're spot on about how current-day social and mental health issues have no place in the 24th century outside of allegory - the whole appeal of Star Trek's future is based in its optimism, that humans can evolve our sensibilities, so to speak. "Show, don't tell" applies here too. Characters kept talking about how they were saving a bright future, but we haven't seen that bright future in Picard. The human future we've seen in PIC is one of xenophobia, wealth inequality, addiction, conspiracy theories, spousal abuse piss-poor mental healthcare, etc...

I'm talking about Robert and Rene dying in Generations. They died in a fire. "These things happen" Picard said. "No sir, these things don't happen" said Troi, because, in the 24th century, people should not die in fires. But Robert, like their father, was a luddite. Refusing to get a replicator. Insisting on traditional vintnering methods. Apparently refusing even a fire suppression net. THAT's an avenue to explore trauma, paternal relationships, the loss of legacy.

But no, let's give Sir Patrick editorial control so he can get his pet causes in the show. Let's rehome a pitbull (I actually love that), let's bait-and-switch on spousal abuse and parental mental illness, undercutting the impact of both issues and implying that nothing will improve on either front in the next 400 years. Let's ignore that this is something that undermines his whole character and damages the credibility of every counsellor he's ever spoken to. Let's ignore that if he had had a role in letting his mother hang herself, that would have been something Robert would have held over him for his entire life. Let's justify it by saying that's what's been holding him back from a committed relationship - not, I dunno, professionalism & dedication (cause we don't know what those are)... no, just more scared little boy bullshit.

I have to disagree with you here Destructor. If there's one thing we've seen fairly consistently, it's that 24th Century mental health care doesn't seem as great as it first looks. Okay, by the 24th century, larger ships have counselors, but that raises the question of why such ships need counselors if 24th Century mental health care is so good? (And where are these counselors in the 22nd and 23rd centuries? Was Starfleet Medical's mental health division truly so bad that they didn't think severe isolation might lead to mental health issues in the vacuum of space?) We don't need to look at Picard himself for proof of this though, we can look at those around him. Worf wants an honor killing after an injury in TNG's Ethics, regardless of who it traumatizes. Sisko watches his wife die, and the only mental healthcare he seeks is going full Will Smith on Picard's face in DS9's premiere. Heck, In the Pale Moonlight, shows Sisko looking like he's one step from a nervous breakdown, and that's not even getting into wiping out the ecosystem of an entire planet to send a message. Janeway isn't much better, nearly murdering a man without due process (Equinox Pt. 2) with Chakotay ironically being the one to uphold Starfleet ideals and stop her. Likewise, in Endgame we learn that Tuvok basically loses his mind before Admiral Janeway goes back in time and rewrites history, which in and of itself suggests some severe mental trauma on Janeway's part.

 

Now let's look at Picard. We know he didn't really get along with his family precisely because of Homecoming, and know that Roddenberry wanted him to have a fist fight with his father, (I believe this became  a fist fight with his brother instead,) which would suggest that Picard has always had unresolved mental issues. We also know that when Picard briefly saw his mother in Where No One Has Gone Before, it was implied that she died years ago, but we never knew how; Picard almost went full "Kirk in the nexus ribbon" over seeing her again. Let's also not forget that Picard has a real issue with children, established at the start of TNG when Wesley first appears on the bridge. Now let's look at Picard season two: We learn that Picard's mother has committed suicide, we learn that Picard has repressed his memories of this event, and we learn that it has affected him more than he realizes. To your point Destructor, we know that the rest of Picard's family died in a fire, and that Picard brushed this off as "normal." Let's argue for a moment that I'm making Starfleet and the Federation's mental health services seem worse than they are though; do you really think that the same guy who wouldn't install a replicator or even a fire suppression net would care about or even notice his wife's diminishing mental health? Do you think that he would encourage her to seek the help she needed? The impression that I've gotten of Picard's parents are that his father (and brother) were both luddites, and his mother's mental illness may have been treatable, but only if she had been around people who would have done something about it. If anything, Picard season two makes Picard's "these things happen" line in Generations feel even more like the reaction he would have to such an event, because with his repressed childhood trauma, he's unknowingly admitted that he's used to this type of thing that shouldn't be happening in the 24th century. This type of trauma is nothing new to Trek's 24th century, and I would argue that it doesn't really take away from Picard's character. If anything, it explains a lot about why he never liked children, (as a child he couldn't save his own mother,) why his reaction to his family dying isn't more emotional, and why he's always trying to fix things for others. I do think that what I've read about this season makes it seem like it was always going to be half–baked, but that the finale really is the payoff here.

 

Spoiler

 

I had more for this post, but I'm going to put it in a separate post below to make reading this a little more manageable.



#238 Alex

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 02:06 AM

Okay, so now that we know Picard Season 3 will be the final season of the show, (which let's be honest, we pretty much knew from day one when it was announced as a three season series; we were all just in denial about that because season one was so darn good,) I wound up thinking and realized I had no other place to really suggest this, so I figured this would be the place to do so. Would we want to see any other Captain get the Picard treatment of a series about them? I thought about this, and realized that as much as I want more Janeway, I'm getting that with Prodigy, and I wouldn't want a "three and done" series for her. It might work for Sisko, it definitely wouldn't be something that would work for Prime Universe Kirk in my opinion, (SNW sort of is following Pike as much as you can,) and the less we see of Burnham the better. (I find her to suffer from the same problem as Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars, which is that by the time you go through the atrocities those two commit, their "redemption" stories feel like they're trying to redeem someone whose truly irredeemable, and I blame the season one writers of DSC for that.) That being said, there is one Captain who could work really well in a Picard style show, and we actually know everything about him that we need to for such a show to be written: Archer.

 

Seriously, think about it; Star Trek: Archer would actually be an awesome series, Scott Bakula is old enough to pull it off now, and literally everything we need to know for the series is on an LCARS screen in These Are The Voyages. I'm under no illusions that Paramount will be banging down my door tomorrow telling me how much they want to hire me for this, (of course I wouldn't say "no" if they did :P,) nor do I think they'll touch anything from ENT again, but the more I thought about it the more I realized just how well this could actually work, and wanted to see if anyone agreed.

 

Basically, the idea would go something like this:

Season One: Follows Archer during his promotion to and early time as Admiral. (We know this happens from the aforementioned LCARS screen in the Prime Universe, and it's mentioned in the Kelvin Timeline as well.) Given that at the end of These Are The Voyages, Archer is assigned a Warp 7 ship, it's reasonable to believe he spends more time as a Captain before his promotion, which means we don't even have to try to recreate the aesthetic of ENT for such a show; it's far enough in the future that it could borrow cues from ENT and DSC.

 

Season Two: Archer as president of the Federation. We saw the very beginnings of the formation of the Federation in Terra Prime, but again, thanks to that very visible LCARS screen, we know that Archer became its president. We could see this stage of his career, perhaps culminating in the approval of plans for the constitution–class starship.

 

Season Three: This one would be a throwback to ENT in a way; once again, our handy LCARS screen tells us that Archer "died peacefully in his sleep the night after witnessing the launch of the first Federation starship Enterprise, NCC–1701." Basically, we'd get to see Archer, perhaps in a diminished state, (think Picard in Picard Season One,) advocating for the launch of the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC–1701. Thanks to SNW we got to see Robert April again, (even if he's a little different than we remember,) and this would give us a chance to potentially see a young Robert April, possibly in a position similar to Johnathan Archer's of wanting to see his father's ship fly, pushing along with Archer's help for the ship to launch, with the show ending shortly after April's 1701 launches through the Earth's atmosphere and goes to warp, Archer's final mission accomplished and the torch passed to a new generation.

 

Would this be something worth watching? Would it be the kind of thing we would like to see in the style of Picard, bringing back a classic character and expanding on his story? I mean, on one hand I'm sure the idea of having an LCARS prop as your elevator pitch for a series probably sounds crazy, but on the other, you basically have three stories begging to be told, and when Jim Parsons pitched Young Sheldon, he basically said he did it by saying he thought it was a crazy idea because "we already knew Sheldon's entire backstory," yet clearly CBS (and now Paramount) thought there was something there. I actually think the one other captain a "Picard" style series could work for is Archer, and have to ask if anyone else likes this idea as well?



#239 Alex

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 01:10 AM

I realize this is now my third post in a row in this thread, but I’m absolutely loving the trailer we got for season three on Star Trek day! Supposedly,

Spoiler
I’m just hoping that when all is said and done we get that 7 of 9/Raffi show potentially set on the new ship in the trailer. Actually, I’m kind of hoping that said ship is used as part of a larger VGR revival in general, or in some way is the home to a proper 25th Century Trek series that isn’t meant to last merely for three seasons.






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