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Could Khan Be Back For 'Star Trek' Sequel?


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#41 JulesLuvsShinzon

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE (Thomas E. Johnson @ Nov 24 2009, 08:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Or perhaps ends up working with Kirk against such a threat. From all we've been given in "Space Seed" and the "Eugenics Wars" Novels, Khan is not really the evil person that does tyrannical things just because he feels like it. His actions, although brutal, are due to him wanting to clean house of all that he sees that weaken the whole of society, and usher in a regime of order and prosperity. I think a story that shows the more sympathetic side of Khan, forced to realize that while he may not always see eye-to-eye with Kirk, that Kirk and himself could do great things for the greater good, would be interesting.


Eek! That sounds like trying to see the good streak in Hitler!!! Sounds a LOT like Hitler and his desire that Britain became his ally before we told him to shove it.

Khan got shoved into the Botany Bay for a reason and it wasn't winning a popularity contest!! Khan is Khan, you have to work with him as a villain - albeit one with some motives that only he regards as acceptable motives and with considerable charisma.

EDIT I posted this before I read JMW's post!! Apparently great minds think alike!!

#42 JulesLuvsShinzon

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 11:26 AM

QUOTE (Thomas E. Johnson @ Nov 24 2009, 09:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Khan wasn't like Hitler though. Hitler went after everyone he didn't like. Khan actually tried to clean up the world's mess and make it a better place for people to live, and ended up hated for it.


Yep, that's exactly how Hitler justified his political stance to his fellow countrymen in the 1930s. Do you not see the connection between "Ayrian" and "Eugenics"?

#43 The_Donster

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:38 PM

unsure.gif Captain, it appears we're getting dangerously close to the Neutral Zone huh.gif I agree with FHC, Faran Tahir would make for a great Khan. However, it wouldn't make much sense to revisit this villain, if for any reason other than respect for Ricardo Montalban. He made the character and it should stay with him. I'm thinking we'll eventually see the Klingons, if for nothing more than Abrahams was disappointed in dropping their scenes from the movie. It would be interesting though to see the Cardassians, the Andorians or even the Jem'Hadar/Founders, as enemies. With the timeline being altered, who knows how this affected things. Hell, even the Bajorans could be enemies for that matter.

#44 Matty-lad

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 01:11 PM

Hey all,

As per SFX website, someone else may be in line to play Khan if he appears.

http://www.sfx.co.uk...k_ii_until_2012

Take care,
Matty-lad

#45 The_Donster

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 01:20 PM

QUOTE
Quotes from the link Matty provided:

I really, REALLY hope Khan's not in the sequel. I hope Khan's not in ANY sequels, EVER.

They've gone to all this trouble to reboot the franchise, what's the point in going where the last lot have been before?
Posted by Bobcat (127.0.0.1) on November 18, 2009 at 01:45 PM GMT #

Totally agree with Bobcat's comments, they need to follow their own story ideas and create new villains not remake the Wrath of Khan. Its been done and done perfectly and no-one could ever top Ricardo Montalben!
Posted by Chris Evans (127.0.0.1) on November 20, 2009 at 11:02 AM GMT #


Drops microphone, exits stage...for now wink.gif

#46 reverie

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 01:24 PM

They would have Bat-Manuel play Khan?!

#47 FHC

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 03:35 PM

QUOTE (Matty-lad @ Nov 25 2009, 02:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey all,

As per SFX website, someone else may be in line to play Khan if he appears.

http://www.sfx.co.uk...k_ii_until_2012

Take care,
Matty-lad


Yeah I see it.




Khan is going to be back, like it or not. That's money in the bank.

#48 Commodore Kor'Tar

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 04:37 PM

So much for Klingons as the enemy , guess they could always come around for Star Trek 3 : The Next Rehash lol

#49 Gothneo

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 05:25 PM

wow. 2012. that seems a bit long for something that was already signed off on... 3 years out... there was only 2 years between ST-II, ST-III and ST-IV respectively...

#50 VulcanFanatic

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 05:31 PM

QUOTE (Gothneo @ Nov 25 2009, 06:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
wow. 2012. that seems a bit long for something that was already signed off on... 3 years out... there was only 2 years between ST-II, ST-III and ST-IV respectively...

Star Wars movies have always had the 3 year wait, so i am used to it. I would imagine between writing the script, numerous rewrites, preproduction, production, juggling everyones schedules, special effects and a million other things that go into making a big budget scifi movie can make it be every bit of a 3 year ordeal, not to mention waiting extra months to release the movie on a mega lucrative weekend.

#51 VulcanFanatic

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 05:36 PM

QUOTE (FHC @ Nov 25 2009, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah I see it.




Khan is going to be back, like it or not. That's money in the bank.

The guy certainly looks tha part, but i have never heard the guy speak that i know of, i dont watch Lost or much other tv for that matter. Khan would be an okay edition to the next movie IMO, but it definitely should not be just a remake, but have a different slant to it somehow.

#52 Thomas E. Johnson

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 12:35 AM

QUOTE (JulesLuvsShinzon @ Nov 25 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yep, that's exactly how Hitler justified his political stance to his fellow countrymen in the 1930s. Do you not see the connection between "Ayrian" and "Eugenics"?


Of course I do.

However, I see Khan as more like Napoleon, or even perhaps Stalin, than Hitler. I see him as a man with an idealistic vision of what a properly functioning society should be, but arrogant enough to to believe that he must be the one to usher in that vision at any cost what so ever, because to his mind, the ends justify the means.

#53 JulesLuvsShinzon

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 04:02 AM

^^^^Yes, I believe Hitler's mind worked the same way!! wink.gif

I'm not sure if the recent press releases mean that we're definitely getting Khan in the next movie. I'm not sure how I feel about that except that my gut's saying "How predictable".
I sure hope they make his inclusion worthwhile because the next movie needs a compelling villain and Pine needs to mature into the role of Kirk. Currently, he's the only one in the new cast who has quite nailed his character - except of course Zoe, although that's due to lack of opportunity more than anythig else.

#54 Thomas E. Johnson

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 03:31 PM

If it is Khan, then I want to see Khan's full character shown, and even grown on, in a new story. In "Space Seed," we learn that although there was little freedom, there were also no massacres under his rule, and people seemed to be better off. Its clear that Kirk and company (Spock excluded) admired this guy, even if they didn't approve of his methods. I'd like to see a story that dives into this, that shows us that Khan isn't all evil. He has extreme methods, but correct and noble goals, same way Spock described Bella Oxmz in "Piece Of The Action." Perhaps a story about Khan being unable to come to grips that Earth Society has matured to the point where the problems he sought to correct when he was last awake no longer exist and his methods of Government no longer necessary, and this fuels the conflict between Kirk and Khan. Perhaps this would make an interesting story. Or does it sound like a deeper synopsis of "Space Seed?" Perhaps thats what the movie should be after all? Take the synopsis of "Space Seed" and take it to deeper levels?

#55 JulesLuvsShinzon

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 06:23 AM

QUOTE (Thomas E. Johnson @ Dec 1 2009, 09:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If it is Khan, then I want to see Khan's full character shown, and even grown on, in a new story. In "Space Seed," we learn that although there was little freedom, there were also no massacres under his rule, and people seemed to be better off.


That would be Khan's own assessment of his time on Earth, but clearly in Treklore, we know that genetic enhancement of humans was subsequently banned (Bashir -DS9) and that the people of Earth felt so blessed that they sent this avatar of human prosperity and his followers into a ship named for the final destination of convict transports and shot them out into space. The physical fact of Khan's exile would suggest that much of his backstory was, in fact, delusional, along with evidence of his behaviour on board Kirk's ship which he tried to take over - ending in his second exile to Ceti Alpha! Yep, a real feel-good dude!

QUOTE
Its clear that Kirk and company (Spock excluded) admired this guy, even if they didn't approve of his methods.


Ah, well, the clue there was that Spock wasn't impressed - even by Khan's objective aims. Kirk might well have been impressed by Khan initially, and it's plain that Khan had considerable personal charisma, along with the delusion that he was some kind of "prince", but at the end of the day, the only person who remained impressed enough by Khan to crumble under his influence was historian Marla McGivers who had a somewhat romantic yearning for past times. If you recall, Kirk actually reprimanded McGivers for her lack of focus on the mission, and let's face it, when she first clapped eyes on Khan's recumbent form on the Botany Bay, realised that she was gazing upon a figure from history and he was FIT - her reason plunged from her brain to her panties!! wink.gif

I really don't think that Kirk was all that impressed by Khan, especially as what he stood for was diametrically opposed to Kirk's own moral compass.

QUOTE
Perhaps a story about Khan being unable to come to grips that Earth Society has matured to the point where the problems he sought to correct when he was last awake no longer exist and his methods of Government no longer necessary, and this fuels the conflict between Kirk and Khan. Perhaps this would make an interesting story. Or does it sound like a deeper synopsis of "Space Seed?" Perhaps thats what the movie should be after all? Take the synopsis of "Space Seed" and take it to deeper levels?


Why do I suddenly get the impression that a lot of people here will groan collectively at a deeper synopsis of Space Seed??!! You know, your miniskirts, fisticuffs and phaser gang don't do "deep", and I don't think that Orci and Kurtzman exactly specialise in deep analysis and intelligent script!

And I speak as one who simply LOVES in-depth analysis!!

I think that you have perhaps read the Eugenics Wars novels and have internalised some of its content. Remember that not even all Trekkers have read this series (I haven't) and while Orci and Kurtzman relied heavily upon the Countdown series of comics to prop up their own improbable plot for the movie, they can't assume an audience to be familiar with Khan's history. To a lot of casual Trekkers and mainstream audiences he was simply some movie villain played by that bloke from Fantasy Island!

Nemesis relied too heavily on Trekkers being steeped in TNG lore, because you had to know Picard's personal background to get the most out of what having a clone of him would mean. While intrigiung, intelligent, and deeply Gothic in mood, Nemesis tanked in part because it failed to make sense to more casual Trekkers - let alone a mainstream audience - and that was before even Baird stuck his knife and fork into the footage and made a dog's dinner out of it!!

There was enought in Montalban's rendering of Khan in TWOK to make writers want to explore that character more, and there were glimpses of tenderness in his portrayal - alhtough he used his tender feelings towards his dead wife (presumably Marla McGivers, although that is not made explicit in the film), as an excuse to cause mayhem and murder and steal an invention to turn into a weapon. Likewise, Shinzon could invoke feelings of compassion because of his creation and situation as a victim of the corrosive effects of racism and slavery (something Nero singularly failed to do in his loss of spuse and child!), but a movie that tries to suggest that draconian measures to "improve" human society by interfering with nature will grate with large portions of the viewing public who might be reminded of Stalin, Chairman Mao, and Hitler.

It might indeed make for a challenging debate a la NuBSG, but not in the hands of Orci and Kurtzman whose lack of subtlety will simply produce an obnoxious movie very far removed from Trek's purpose.

#56 The_Donster

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 07:10 PM

Sorry Jules, but I'd rather have the in depth analysis left for the books and not the big screen. The next movie is some time away, so who's to say who's writing it by that point. I agree that it would probable be lazy, if not disrespectful to the memory of Montalban, if they explored Khan. I'm saying that they could or couldn't do a nice job modernizing the character, I just like them to investigate an alien race that were affected by Nero's altering of the timeline instead. This would insure that the pace doesn't get bogged down and further justify the reasoning behind the reboot in the first place.

#57 JulesLuvsShinzon

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 03:59 AM

QUOTE (The_Donster @ Dec 3 2009, 01:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sorry Jules, but I'd rather have the in depth analysis left for the books and not the big screen.


In part I agree with you, but in the hands of better writers than the ones we're currently stuck with, a Trek movie could be both an action movie and one that excites further analysis if one is of a mind to. Nemesis is not a good example to use here because I'm all up to speed with TNG lore and I got it, but your average phaser and miniskirt Joe is left wondering WTF as that all about? TWOK is a better example and it did indeed spawn a series of Trek novels. I don't believe that the constraints of a two-hour movie and an audience that largely inhails dumbed-down movies is an excuse for not stretching the envelope a bit. However, Orci and Kurtzman express themselves like a couple of surfboys and I don't really see the next movie tickling anyone's intellect sadly.

QUOTE
The next movie is some time away, so who's to say who's writing it by that point.


From what I've read we can safely assume it's mostly the same team producing the movie and Messrs Orci and Kurtzman seem to be Bad Robot's writers in residence. There first Trek movie was well received by both critics and fandom, so I don't see them changing the team that bought them success. I don't see them taking the path that the Harry Potter franchise has taken in deliberately upping their game as the cast of characters matures and grows older. The last HP movie was a considerable departure from what has gone before, I don't see the Trek movies evolving with a maturing audience in the same way.

QUOTE
I agree that it would probable be lazy, if not disrespectful to the memory of Montalban, if they explored Khan. I'm saying that they could or couldn't do a nice job modernizing the character, I just like them to investigate an alien race that were affected by Nero's altering of the timeline instead. This would insure that the pace doesn't get bogged down and further justify the reasoning behind the reboot in the first place.


Well...exactly!

#58 The_Donster

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 12:05 PM

Wow, I've never see someone actually break up a 5 sentence quote before, you guys are killing me laugh.gif Glad I was on my computer and not my phone when reading that tongue.gif

#59 thecapn

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 12:22 PM

Have you seen The Dark Knight? Didn't this guy play the mayor?

QUOTE (VulcanFanatic @ Nov 25 2009, 06:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The guy certainly looks tha part, but i have never heard the guy speak that i know of, i dont watch Lost or much other tv for that matter. Khan would be an okay edition to the next movie IMO, but it definitely should not be just a remake, but have a different slant to it somehow.



#60 Commodore Kor'Tar

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 12:45 PM

I am an avid fan of Lost and I believe this guy would fit the bill as Khan if that's where they are going . He has the right look and the right voice IMHO.

I just hope that if they do Khan , they make him a calm , measured, ego maniacal, madman , like the Khan we knew and loved .




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