1901 replies to this topic

[VulcanFanatic]

Show their true colors? You mean being a conservative? No, I am not a liberal. I am very old fashioned. Being old fashioned does not mean racist,and living below the Mason Dixon line does not equate to being a racist or homophobe. I don't want every show to look like it was made in the 1960's , but I want a Star Trek show to respect what came before and not seemingly just abandon the iconic look of Star Trek that's lasted 50 years. I want a faithful Star Trek show, but I am not going to accept just anything they come up with just to have a Star Trek show. You have to have standards, otherwise you have to accept anything. Sorry, not accepting Discovery.When they do better, they may get my money again.

[1701D]

It all makes sense now.

By its very nature, Star Trek is a very liberal show. Not just because of its original premise laid out 51 years ago by a liberal man, but down to the fact that most in Hollywood are liberal. Its progressive. It embraces people of all belief, faith, race and sex. If you voted Trump, chances are Star Trek will not appeal to you beyond the materialistic aspect of the franchise; the ships, aesthetic etc...

That I understand is a sweeping generalisation but as generalisations go... its perhaps a pretty accurate one.

You still havent explained what it is you dont like about this show beyond its look... I think regardless of your beliefs etc... your argument falls completely flat on its face when you cant even elaborate on why you dislike Discovery so much, why you disliked the JJ Abrams movies so much and why you disliked Enterprise so much beyond them not visually tying into what has come before and why, if you have disliked so much of recent Star Trek, you continue to troll this message board with very old fashioned ways of thinking about humankind and society. Your arguments are continuously irrelevant, short sighted, backward and flawed.

Unfortunately VF, if you cant embrace change in Star Trek or indeed in real life, then you are going to find yourself fighting a very very difficult and loosing battle. If you think a conservative way is a way forward then you are even more ignorant of the future and of change than youve presented yourself here.

Now I understand that everyone has a right to choose and to believe in what they want, but everyone must accept and embrace that life, which Star Trek is a part of, will continue to change as the world continues to change. You either accept that or die fighting against what is happening naturally.

[Gothneo]

if the subject of those criticisms is a human named Kurtzman, and is motivated by writing style, I'd be ok with it.

 

So... I think if you search you'll see I'm no huge fan of Kurtzman... I've posted many criticisms about him. ...  but He's only an Exec Producer on most episodes... he's only credited as writing the first episode "Vulcan Hello"... he is credited as the overall creator... and as an exec producer does set the tone ... so I do think its fair to lay the general blame for plot holes on him... but he's not solely responsible. 

 

 

I don't think they do. What they do know is roughly what sells.

 

Personally, I couldn't give a rat's ass what "sells", unless what's selling is going to prompt more of what I like.

 

 

Well... unfortunately... if something can't sell then there is an issue... because CBS is profit driven... but this is the issue with such a large franchise... and its not just about what one or two people want... its about what they think they can sell... which isn't to say that what you want wouldn't sell too... but saying its all about what you want seems a be relativistic. 

 

 

My personal metric for what is "great" is not informed by viewing figures or profits. It's informed by competent and compelling story telling.

 

Agreed! and as discussed DISCO does (currently) seem to have plot holes... but for one sec put aside that it has the "Trek" moniker on it and view it as some space opera... you don't find it at all compelling? 

 

Compelling story telling is self-explanatory. Events and decisions that follow logically and cleverly from moment to moment, providing a solid basis for emotional involvement in the story. Discovery is improving episode by episode in that respect, but it started off very poorly, with events and decisions poorly explained or justified and regular bouts of bloody awful dialogue. 

 

But... see this is why you should re-watch some of the earlier episodes... and why the Title of the Episode "Context is for Kings" is meaningful in the way they are telling this story... The context is being slowly revealed to us, and hopefully, it'll all come together... they aren't telling episodic stories which means they don't wrap everything up or answer all your questions at the end of each episode. 

 

Is it perfect? No. does it suffer from the issue you identify? Yes... but I hope partly because we don't have the whole story... however, there are bound to be remaining holes and issues. 

 

Know there is a pretty large group of Trek fans that view Trek as an ideal Utopia where Humans are more "evolved"... but thats never been my take on Trek... the fact that even in TOS they have Penal Colonies and whole planets where they sock away the mentally ill says otherwise to me. I think Whirlygig and I were talking about this in another thread... but to me its the Humanist Ideal that they live by and strive to maintain that makes it so... and there is a clearly a struggle for those ideals in DISCO... the question is will the show display them, ultimately, triumphant?

 

I Dunno... gonna have to watch the rest!

[MisterPL]

It all makes sense now.

By its very nature, Star Trek is a very liberal show. Not just because of its original premise laid out 51 years ago by a liberal man, but down to the fact that most in Hollywood are liberal. Its progressive. It embraces people of all belief, faith, race and sex. If you voted Trump, chances are Star Trek will not appeal to you beyond the materialistic aspect of the franchise; the ships, aesthetic etc... 

 

If homophobes and racists are complaining about Star Trek, it's heading in the right direction.

[1701D]

 
If homophobes and racists are complaining about Star Trek, it's heading in the right direction.

Damn straight!

[Alteran195]

Can transphobic, homophobic, and racist people even be real fans?

 

Having that kind of attitude pretty much goes against what Star Trek is. 

[1701D]

Can transphobic, homophobic, and racist people even be real fans?
 
Having that kind of attitude pretty much goes against what Star Trek is. 

I dont think they can be fans no. They certainly cant be fans that understand what Star Trek has and always will be.

[MisterPL]

Can transphobic, homophobic, and racist people even be real fans?

 

Having that kind of attitude pretty much goes against what Star Trek is. 

 

Exactly. Many insist they are fans but as 1701D suggested, they probably never looked far past the fancy spaceships and occasional fisticuffs. To them it might as well have been called, "White Men Conquer the Galaxy!"

 

Their favorite parts of TOS probably involved McCoy calling the science guy a half-breed and the Scot picking a fight with those space Mexicans who bad-mouthed his ship. That kiss between Kirk and his Negress subordinate sure made them squirm but they found comfort knowing it was coerced, like integration in the south.

 

[Gothneo]

[VulcanFanatic]

It all makes sense now.

By its very nature, Star Trek is a very liberal show. Not just because of its original premise laid out 51 years ago by a liberal man, but down to the fact that most in Hollywood are liberal. Its progressive. It embraces people of all belief, faith, race and sex. If you voted Trump, chances are Star Trek will not appeal to you beyond the materialistic aspect of the franchise; the ships, aesthetic etc...

That I understand is a sweeping generalisation but as generalisations go... its perhaps a pretty accurate one.

You still havent explained what it is you dont like about this show beyond its look... I think regardless of your beliefs etc... your argument falls completely flat on its face when you cant even elaborate on why you dislike Discovery so much, why you disliked the JJ Abrams movies so much and why you disliked Enterprise so much beyond them not visually tying into what has come before and why, if you have disliked so much of recent Star Trek, you continue to troll this message board with very old fashioned ways of thinking about humankind and society. Your arguments are continuously irrelevant, short sighted, backward and flawed.

Unfortunately VF, if you cant embrace change in Star Trek or indeed in real life, then you are going to find yourself fighting a very very difficult and loosing battle. If you think a conservative way is a way forward then you are even more ignorant of the future and of change than youve presented yourself here.

Now I understand that everyone has a right to choose and to believe in what they want, but everyone must accept and embrace that life, which Star Trek is a part of, will continue to change as the world continues to change. You either accept that or die fighting against what is happening naturally.

You sound just like the idiots that complain about Trump and people who support him being full of hate and backward, yet Clinton supporters exhibit the most hateful , moronic behavior, but yet accuse republicans of doing exactly what the Democrats do. Progress is not destroying the family and supporting homosexual relationships. I don't hate people that are involved in unhealthy relationships,but I don't condone their behavior either. There was absolutely nothing wrong with Kirk kissing Uhura in TOS. I don't concentrate on race, skin color is irrelevant. Behavior and character is what's important.People need to grow up and quit pretending. If your a man, act like one. It's pretty easy to figure out which bathroom to use if you use your brain.

[1701D]

You sound just like the idiots that complain about Trump and people who support him being full of hate and backward, yet Clinton supporters exhibit the most hateful , moronic behavior, but yet accuse republicans of doing exactly what the Democrats do. Progress is not destroying the family and supporting homosexual relationships. I don't hate people that are involved in unhealthy relationships,but I don't condone their behavior either. There was absolutely nothing wrong with Kirk kissing Uhura in TOS. I don't concentrate on race, skin color is irrelevant. Behavior and character is what's important.People need to grow up and quit pretending. If your a man, act like one. It's pretty easy to figure out which bathroom to use if you use your brain.

I neither support Clinton or Trump. Personally I think your whole country is backwards in coming forwards. As is mine. I think the whole political system is shot to shit quite frankly and will ultimately be the planets undoing.

If that is your opinion though VF, then you are welcome to it. I guess even the most backward thinking people in our societies are allowed a forum in which to speak their utter nonsense.

However, how you can call yourself a Star Trek fan, when Star Trek throughout its 51 years has supported equality, diversity, progressive ideas and the idea that in the future it wont matter how you decide to live your life, is beyond me.

VF, Star Trek isnt the problem here, you are the problem. The only good that has come from talking to you, is that no one else here seems to share your homophobic, sexist, misogynistic, hypocritical and backward opinions and views.

You are an utter disgrace to not just the Star Trek fan community but to the human race as a whole. You will burn for all eternity with the likes of Trump in the hell you do wish to live in. You are truly as disgusting a man as that orange baffoon Putin put in the White House.

I said you deserve a forum to express your opinions... this is not that forum. I would therefore ask you as a man, to do the manly thing and kindly ask you to remove your account and go and find the rock in which others like you voice their hatred from.

There is no Vulcan left in you, youre just a fanatic.

[Daysleeper]

Guys, calm down. This shouldn't be a political discussion here. If Discovery has achieved one thing, it is dividing the fandom, maybe even more than JJTrek did. I'm not a fan of this new show, and I have been attacked in several groups only for saying that I don't like the show. I've been called backwards thinking, close-minded etc. without people ever wanting to hear the reasons for my dislike of the show. I find this very disturbing. Someone in another discussion group noted that people who don't like Discovery usually criticize the show, while people who like the show criticize those who don't. Unfortunately, I find this to be true more often than not.

This is a forum about Star Trek, more accurately about Trek toys. We shouldn't be at each other's throats or insulting each other.

[Gothneo]

Daysleeper, if your watching the show, I know I'd love to hear any critiques you have of the show... I and most others have issues with it.... I know I don't think it's perfect and I think if you look at the discussions of the actual show, people here have been pretty respectful to each other's opinions.

A certain member has decided to espouse phobias and succumb to their own hate and fear... So sad... So unecessary... Many of us have solved that problem by putting that individual on ignore so we only see their bigoted rhetoric when quoted.

But I do agree this isn't a place for political discussion... Which can be difficult since often such shows have a political undertone to them. I guess if people want to talk politics maybe start a politics topic in the everything else thread?

[Alteran195]

Id say Random Thoughts would be better than Everything Else since that forum is mainly about collectibles.

[1701D]

Sorry to anyone Ive offended by reacting to VFs bigoted attitude but while I rarely take comments to a political place, i felt that in this instance, VF needed putting in his place. His attitude has no place in the 21st century, let alone the 23rd century

[Gothneo]

Id say Random Thoughts would be better than Everything Else since that forum is mainly about collectibles.

 

I second that... good idea.

[VulcanFanatic]

Sorry to anyone Ive offended by reacting to VFs bigoted attitude but while I rarely take comments to a political place, i felt that in this instance, VF needed putting in his place. His attitude has no place in the 21st century, let alone the 23rd century

Your posts are what prompted my post, so stop posting and you won't have any rebuttals to address. 1701, your a disturbed person if you believe all of the things you wrote. And you call me backward.

[Daysleeper]

Daysleeper, if your watching the show, I know I'd love to hear any critiques you have of the show... I and most others have issues with it.... I know I don't think it's perfect and I think if you look at the discussions of the actual show, people here have been pretty respectful to each other's opinions.

A certain member has decided to espouse phobias and succumb to their own hate and fear... So sad... So unecessary... Many of us have solved that problem by putting that individual on ignore so we only see their bigoted rhetoric when quoted.

But I do agree this isn't a place for political discussion... Which can be difficult since often such shows have a political undertone to them. I guess if people want to talk politics maybe start a politics topic in the everything else thread?

Gothneo, I've decided not to watch it any longer. I stopped after the time loop episode, which I could barely stand. I don't like the show for many many reasons, but at the moment I don't feel like discussing them. I tried, mostly in several facebook groups, and it became very ugly. As it - unfortunately - has here, too. Not against me, so far, mostly because I haven't been very vocal here, and I can fully understand why sexist and bigoted ideas have no place here (or anywhere else for that matter).  But the tone here has become... rough, unnecessarily rough for a forum about a sci-fi-show that used to spawn the opposite. I haven't been as active here as I used to, but I always kept reading through some of the threads. At the moment, this forum frustrates me, as do those facebook groups. I'm thinking about taking a break from fandom and just enjoy the parts of the franchise I like for myself. 

[1701D]

your a disturbed person

Its you're. Not your.

[1701D]

I always find it a shame and rather head scratching when fans say theyve stopped watching something they claim to be a fan of. I talk of Daysleepers post above.

I fully respect him not wanting to involve himself in social media conversations on the subject as the internet is a hot bed of individuals with their own opinions fighting to the death, not too dissimilar to the episode Amok Time.

What I will say though is that I think Star Trek fans have been spoilt for decades... 18 years in fact, of the same type of Star Trek story. From TNG through to Enterprise, the tone, the structure of stories and the nature of the franchise was very similar, regardless of where the story was set. DS9 broke with that tradition somewhat, but even that show remained within keeping of what had been established in TNG.

Discovery clearly changes the formula most fans were used to and thats not going to please everyone. This is not bad Star Trek though, but it is different and though its everyones right not to watch the show, I would always try and encourage those who dont watch it, to simply give it a try and especially if youre a fan, watch it until the end. I think they are genuinely going somewhere with this series and the pay off at the end will Im certain be worth the journey.

I have been very up and down on this series but it was really the last couple of episodes that cemented my belief that the writers and producers really understand what Star Trek is and how their show fits into the wider Star Trek franchise. Theyve not got everything right but I have faith that they know enough to ensure that this series is something that as a body of work will be considered some of the best Star Trek to date.

What the show has shown me is that it works better when its episodic, character focused and that there is a far deeper understanding of the intricacies of Star Trek canon. They have really opened my eyes in terms of things I had not picked up on watching TOS. It has also shown me that Star Trek is clearly better off as a TV series, where you can change tack, you can explore the deeper themes and correct mistakes, learn from what viewers are saying on social media, and change the show accordingly whilst not giving up on the original concept. Its a much more creative place to be. Whereas film, you shoot the movie, cut it together to form a 2 hour story and release it hoping for the best.

The biggest things I would begin changing to tie into TOS is how Discovery looks. The characters and stories are though some of the best Star Trek stories and whilst it still does not compare in terms of nostalgic value for me that TNG/DS9/VGR/ENT has, its still a damn good Star Trek series.