67 replies to this topic

[Sybeck1]

One beef of mine of all of the JJ VERSE movies is how silly Pegg's Scotty is. Doohan did have several comic relief moments in the series but he was a man's man. Heck he picked a fistfight with Klingons! Kirk had no problem giving tgat Scotty the chair. Pegg's is a wimp, but not as bad as his waterworks scene in the 2009 engineering

[Jay K]

Great post Destructor, and your Galaxy Quest comparison is really spot on (and I haven't seen that stated anywhere before).

[Whirlygig]

All great points, Destructor, I agree.

 

• Stupid: Scotty's Cirque-du-Soleil act upon exiting his torpedo. Not only are those kinds of antics not plausible for someone like Scotty, it was just plain badly done. I didn't believe Scotty was in danger because what I was seeing did not look real. Fingers don't work like that. In this behind the scenes B-roll, you can over-hear Lin talking Pegg through the shooting of the scene, and it seems to me that Pegg is sceptical, treating this as some sort of "necessary evil" to appeal to the action demographic or something... so pointless and stupid.

 

This one is, IMO, a pretty bad offense given the fact that we already watched Kirk do this stunt just 2 films ago.  I don't really see how the director could have ever watched the first film (or even a trailer for it!) and still felt like he should include this.

 

Also, why does this film get a free pass (from many) on the bike, when that ATV in Nemesis was one of the things I seem to remember everyone focusing their hate on?  Not to try and defend most of Nemesis or anything.  Though I would still rather watch it than any JJverse film, even this one.  And no, I will not start calling it "Kelvin Timeline" instead of JJverse!  

[Whirlygig]

One beef of mine of all of the JJ VERSE movies is how silly Pegg's Scotty is. Doohan did have several comic relief moments in the series but he was a man's man. Heck he picked a fistfight with Klingons! Kirk had no problem giving tgat Scotty the chair. Pegg's is a wimp, but not as bad as his waterworks scene in the 2009 engineering

 

I've been having this thought as well but I never brought it up because people would just tell me "Scotty always had a sense of humor".  Yes, but his sense of humor was not like this...  This is Pegg's signature kind of somewhat-self-deprecating, self-aware, look at me I'm a geek, etc, etc, humor.  Scotty's was more like uncle or grandpa humor.  And imagining this Scotty taking to fisticuffs over calling the ship a "garbage scow" is unimaginable.

[Alteran195]

The ATV in Nemesis didn't make any sense, whereas the motorcycle does. They didnt have any better way of distracting the guards at Kralls base than doing what they did with the bike. While we don't necessarily know why the bike was there, the most logical assumption for the bike being there is that it had belonged to a member of the crew.

Driving around collecting B4's parts in an ATV, when they could have just as easily used a shuttle will never make sense.

[Whirlygig]

Meh...  but at the base they are both plot contrivances to fit in present-day technology suited for present-day action sequences by apparently unimaginative, conventional writers/directors.  If one makes sense only because a previous film established that contrivance before it (does it, though...I give the idea that the exact same model bike happens to be on the Franklin that Kirk used to ride a hearty Valley Girl "AS IF" on the same level as all those happy coincidences that plagued ST09), then I don't really see a difference.

[robster]

I was mostly bored through the whole movie. Should see it again when I'm in Trek mode I guess. Oh well.

 

J-R!

[Alteran195]

Meh...  but at the base they are both plot contrivances to fit in present-day technology suited for present-day action sequences by apparently unimaginative, conventional writers/directors.  If one makes sense only because a previous film established that contrivance before it (does it, though...I give the idea that the exact same model bike happens to be on the Franklin that Kirk used to ride a hearty Valley Girl "AS IF" on the same level as all those happy coincidences that plagued ST09), then I don't really see a difference.

The bike Kirk owned in the 2009 movie was some futuristic bike, the bike in the movie is the same kind that Kirks dad had owned at some point. They were not the same.

[1701D]

Whirlygig, I'd like to point out to you that what it seems like you're saying is that it's ok for these huge plot holes in older Star Trek movies but absolutely outrageous that there should be plot holes in "JJ Trek".

I'm just going to say that while all of the Star Trek movies (and shows) have had huge gaping plot holes, it seems as though only those plot holes in the new Star Trek's are bad.

Let's have some common sense prevail here, don't defend for example, the plot holes in the older movies just because their... What? Older? Not made by JJ Abrams or anyone that hasn't been to Starfleet Academy?

I'd love it that for once you (and others here) were a little more reasoned in your objections to the Kelvin Timeline. Otherwise it just looks as though your bashing them for be sake of bashing them because their new.

Pegg isn't playing Doohans Scotty. This is a different character entirely, in a different universe. It's not logical or fair to compare the two.

Does Simon Pegg do a good job in capturing the spirit of a balmy Scottish engineer? Yes. Does he play it with conviction? Absolutely. Was his performance any good? Are you kidding? It's Simon Freekin' Pegg!!! Of course he did!!!

These actors are pros. A lot of them can act a darn sight better than the originals too. In Star Trek Beyond we got to see them all give 100% to their roles. It was a joy to behold.

As for the beastie boys and motor bike. What Star Trek film doesn't have a bit of silliness? Beyond was by far and away the first Star Trek movie to combine great character moments with spectacle and really, that's all we've ever been given from all 13 movies. At least with Star Trek Beyond we got a decent yarn too.

No it's not going to win any oscars and yes Star Trek's rightful place is on TV but I couldn't have wished for a better Star Trek movie that combined all the great Star Treky moments with an enjoyable and exciting story.

[Alex]

Also, why does this film get a free pass (from many) on the bike, when that ATV in Nemesis was one of the things I seem to remember everyone focusing their hate on?  Not to try and defend most of Nemesis or anything.  Though I would still rather watch it than any JJverse film, even this one.  And no, I will not start calling it "Kelvin Timeline" instead of JJverse!  

I honestly had no problem with the ATV in NEM, despite the fact that a lot of fans seemed to gripe about it. As far as I'm concerned the ATV made sense on a ship where Starfleet had been fighting a war, and might not have wanted to give away their shuttle's position if transporters were down or being interfered with, and a vehicle like the ATV seemed to make sense for that purpose. Also, while the transporters were being interfered with in NEM, it sounded like Picard didn't want to interfere with the alien life on the planet anymore than necessary, so flying around in a shuttle when an ATV was an option probably made less sense from a Prime Directive standpoint, since a primative (by Starfleet standards) vehicle with wheels is likely to only give a pre–warp civilization a better shot at having cars than at showing them something like warp drive. It seemed like a lesser of two evils situation to me.

 

Destructor, I'm glad you finally pointed out what was irking me about the "nebula" not looking like a nebula! I think a proto–planetary disc should have been something that the audience could have handled. I also agree that the opening scene was unnecessary in the way it was executed, but understand why it was done, and felt it would have worked better if it was followed immediately by a big screen rendition of the TOS opening credits between when Kirk is beamed off the planet and when he materializes on the Enterprise. It would have felt more like it was there to loosen up the audience while still kicking off the movie rather than being there just to get the literal and figurative plot device onto the ship. I also had the thoughts that you had about the T'naxians being some sort of gourmet to the Phlebonans.

 

As for the Nebula, I'm going to guess that most ships that went in turned back before the Enterprise and its "advanced navigation systems" showed up. One exception would be the U.S.S. Franklin, which would explain its fate of crash–landing on the surface of Altimid. As for the swarm ships, they were apparently left there by a species that had long since died before the Franklin even crashed, which would suggest that their navigational systems were far more advanced than that of the Federation. This also explains how the Franklin had no trouble following them out of the Nebula, because while it's 200 year old systems might have been terrible at navigating the nebula/protoplanetary disc, they likely had no problem tracking something like the swarm that was moving in a rather predictable pattern. It's also possible that Sulu had memorized enough of the route before the Enterprise was ambushed to be able to tip the scales in his favor, or that the previous route of the Franklin could have been used as a means to get out of the nebula/protoplanetary disc. As for not going around the "nebula," I would say that it's possible that Altimid is somehow inside of it, and its proximity to Starbase Yorktown made knowing just what the heck was inside of it highly appealing. As much as I often disagree with AICN, I have to agree with Copernicus on the "nebula," which I admit was irked me for some reason I couldn't place, largely because it looked like something other than a nebula, and now I know exactly why. A lot of amatuer astronomers also seem to be Trek fans, so dumbing things down for the hell of it seems really counterintuitive in this instance for reasons already mentioned.

 

Also Destructor, as far as the Enterprise goes, I'm pretty sure that the inability to transfer power from the fusion reactors in the saucer to the impulse engines was mentioned to be a result of damage to the ship, most likely resulting in their power being diverted to life support, not that life support was going to be necessary for very long during that trouncing the Enterprise took. Oddly enough, I seemed to feel more for the Franklin crash–landing at Starbase Yorktown than I did for the poor JJ–prise, and I've finally figured out why. The Franklin was Jaylah's home, it was portrayed as her home to the point where she calls it her "house," and even the Enterprise crew seemed to be more emotionally attached to the 200–year old relic than to the Enterprise itself, which didn't seem to feel like the crew's home the way that it did in the Prime Universe, most likely because we always saw the crew back on Earth after the last two Kelvin Timeline films. When we lost Kirk's Enterprise in the Prime Universe, it was a sacrifice of the crew's home, which also felt like a character in its own right. When we lost the JJ–prise, it just felt like another ship in the fleet to me, while seeing the Franklin take a beating hurt because oddly enough, it felt more like the crew's home than the Enterprise, which says a lot about the character interaction in this film being significantly better than in previous Kelvin Timeline material to me.

 

Oh, and I also agree with you about Scotty's escape pod, (it definitely seemed like a "necessary evil" for the action demographic, and I can understand why Pegg was preferrable given that the whole "perilous landing" bit had been slightly better handled by Spock and McCoy,) but disagree with you on the PX70 bike. I actually liked seeing that there, figured it belong to some crewmember of the Franklin who might have taken it down to the occasional planet on shore–leave, and thought it was a nice touch that wasn't used in an awkward way. I actually wouldn't have minded if Kirk was humming "Sabotage" while heading out to cause a distraction as a nod to his former excessivley cocky ways, which are notably toned down to a sane level in this film. (Such a scene could also have explained why Jaylah picked that song in particular, especially since she seemed to be familiar with the music from Earth that was left onboard the Franklin.) Oh, and I actually felt like "Sabotage" worked really well in this film, like "Magic Carpet Ride" in FC well, in the sense that it added to the film rather than subtracted from it. That's actually what I felt like this was a callback too, even a bit more than Kirk's now in–check ego.

 

Additionally, I'm going to defend the "starship cliffdiving" scene, because unlike in the past where it was done for the sake of being flashy, there was actually a practical reason for it in Beyond, and that was to get the atmosphereic compensators on the Franklin to kick in, which felt like a good excuse for this scene in the vein of a classic "Scotty I need warp in three minutes or we're all dead" kind of scene from TOS, but with a bit more action. I hated this in previous films because it felt like it was there for the sake of being there, with the possible exception of INS where it was there to intentionally screw up an out of control data's ability to pilot his ship. (And I can't believe I was able to just defend something in INS; I might need a shower now.) It was also nice to hear Scotty say that he'd "polarize the hull plating" on the Franklin, a nice nod to the fact that ships from that era didn't have modern shields. Oh, and that just reminded me of something that gives me one more theory about the navigation through the protoplanetary disc/nebula. Scotty modified a single–person transporter pad designed for cargo to transport 20 people at a time onto the Franklin. I'm guessing that he might have been able to modify navigation a bit to compensate for the nebula/protoplanetary disc to further aid Sulu in actually getting out of the "nebula."

 

Destructor, I know it's easy to want to hate this film after the first two in the Kelvin Timline, (especially STID,) but it really was quite enjoyable to me, in spite of a handful of flaws that are easily overlooked. I even got past the Franklin's registry by acknowledging that it was likely it's Federation registry we were seeing and not its former pre–Federation registry within about three seconds of seeing that it appeared to have some Kelvin Timeline elements to it that would imply a minor refit at some point. This is not Abrams' Trek Wars series; it's a film by someone who clearly understands Trek the way Abrams understands Star Wars, with some action elements thrown in to appease corporate executives. Pegg and Urban are both Trek fans, and while Urban didn't have an official say in the production, Pegg apparently went to him when he wanted to be sure that an idea for the fans would go over well, and it worked. Urban also laid out a good defense for TMP, and openly admitted to giving that film a nod with his little medallion in this one, so I would definitely like to see this production team continue the Kelvin Timeline on the big screen, just as I'd like to see Abrams continue Star Wars for the foreseeable future. Beyond hasn't dethroned First Contact as my favorite Trek movie, but it's definitely near it in the top of my favorite Trek movies list, and I think it'll hold up a lot better than Trek XI the way the Prime Universe films did simply for not being so Earth–centric.

[Whirlygig]

Whirlygig, I'd like to point out to you that what it seems like you're saying is that it's ok for these huge plot holes in older Star Trek movies but absolutely outrageous that there should be plot holes in "JJ Trek".

 

Not at all.  If you've seen my comments throughout the two Beyond threads, I enjoyed it.  My whole family liked it.  That doesn't mean I can't talk about the parts that were a bit off to me.  While still liking it.  I do have the capacity to like something and critique it at the same time.  So just because in one post I discuss something that gave me pause or was a bit laughable, doesn't mean I suddenly hate the entire thing as a whole.  Some of youse guys is too sensitive, son!  Like you can't stand to read something critical unless it is couched in between 20 paragraphs of ra, ra, siss boom bah greatest-thing-since-toast raving positives...

 

I'm a realist.  Rarely will you hear me talking about how truly awesome something is unless it is, IMO, truly awesome, and not everything can be truly awesome.  And rarely will you hear me totally bashing something as truly 100% completely horrible with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.  Most things for me are just a "meh" with caveats, but I am happy to report that all of the big nostalgia-based franchise movies this summer have been above-meh, outright enjoyable times at the movies (Ghostbusters, TMNT: Out of the Shadows, Star Trek Beyond...and I even enjoyed Batman v. Superman on the whole though I waited til home video to see it). 

 

For the record, I have always been a defender of Nemesis because while it contains a lot of stupid it still, IMO contains enough good to scrape by.  My true motivation for pointing that out was, if we can get over the bikes in Beyond, then can we please finally get over the ATV in Nemesis?  Because I've never been that bothered by it!  (And yet at the same time I do understand why some people hate Nemesis...so, again, I can both acknowledge its shortcomings and defend it at the same time..the complexity of the human brain!)

 

But let this be clear.  I will defend Star Trek Beyond.  I will defend Nemesis.  I will NOT defend Orciverse.  Maybe it is more appropriate to call it Orciverse than JJverse?  But they seem to usually be a group package and I don't want to make more people in the world aware that Orci exists.  

[Alteran195]

I'll say it again. 

 

The ATV in Nemesis didn't make any sense with how it was used. 

 

If the B4's bits were hidden in places that the ATV could get to, and a shuttle couldn't, fine. But they were just out in the open. 

 

How Picard acted while driving it, or driving it at all himself, didn't even remotely fit his character. He wasn't Jean Luc Picard in those scenes, he was Patrick Stewart.The fact that Riker even LET him go down to that planet, even though almost every other time he insisted Picard stay on the Enterprise when it was a potentially dangerous situation, also made Picard going not make sense. 

 

Kirk on the motorcycle made sense for his character, since he had owned one before. 

 

How the motorcycle was used in Beyond made sense since it was just supposed to cause a distraction, which it did pretty damn well. 

 

The motorcycle being on the Franklin can even make sense since we know people from the Trek timeline have an interest in vehicles from the 20th century. 

 

Sure they're both modern day vehicles, but how they're used are completely different. 

[Alteran195]

Concept art for the A. There are some differences, namely the neck and the pylons look different on the final version. I think the nacelles are less tapered too.

https://www.facebook....unseen-section

[Destructor!!!]

I didn't mind the ATV in Nemesis - I just saw it as Picard trading in some of his prestige for an opportunity to let his hair (lol) down on a seemingly low-risk away mission. IIRC, Riker does try to object, but Picard overrules him because he wants to drive the thing. It's a bit of fun for Picard, well earned, nothing more. At least, that's how I see it. The vehicle probably does have practical applications for ground missions where shuttles aren't practical (megaflora jungles, for example), but for what it was in the film, it didn't bother me.

 

Similarly, the bike in Beyond was fine. I like that it seemingly belonged to a Franklin Crewmember, though it would have been nice for that to have been acknowledged by Mannas or someone. Alex, I don't recall ragging on the bike in my rant - I was pretty much fine with it (except for the loud Combustion engine).

 

Alex, 1701D - I wrote that list because I like the film too much. As I thought I made clear, I was just trying to head off a growing and undeserved sense of fanboi-ish fondness I was detecting in myself. I couldn't defend my fondness to myself, so I thought I needed to argue myself down a peg(g) or two.

 

Just to be clear:

 

I still really liked Beyond.

 

I just needed to vent on the individual elements that didn't work for me.

[Alex]

Destructor, I thought I was the only one who didn't mind the ATV in NEM! You're right, Riker does try to object but Picard basically ignores said objection. The way I see it that was also Picard subtly trying to give Riker a command lesson, and a lead up to that line at the end of the film when Picard starts to say "When your first officer tells you not to go on away missions," and Riker cuts him off with "I know, ignore him." To me it felt like Picard having a bit of a low–risk joyride while also trying to teach Riker that his role would change once he assumed command of the Titan.

 

Also Destructor, I'm sorry that I misinterpreted your critiques of the bike, and of the film as a whole. Given that so much "fossil" fuel is now more corn than "fossil," I could reasonably see the combustion engine being capable of running on something similar to corn from an alien world refined into an ethonol mixture. Sure, the engine would still be loud, but my guess is that where the crewmember who owned the bike was intending to ride it, this probably wouldn't matter much. I understand why you critiqued the film, and I don't blame you for that, but I felt like Beyond earned the indulgence of one's inner fanboy, especially after the mess that was STID.

 

Speaking of critiques for Beyond, I have one of my own that's been bugging me. I couldn't put my finger on what was irking me until I thought about it for a bit, and realized it was the rather uninspired title. "Beyond" seems like it was name for the script that they scrapped, and that they just didn't rename it. (Pegg has also mentioned that Alice Eve was omitted simply because they didn't really have a way to work Carol Marcus into the film and didn't want to just kill her off for the sake of showing her on the Enterprise, or worse, to reduce her to human scenery just to have her in the film. Perhaps we'll see her in the next movie though.) I think a better title for this film would have been Star Trek Federation, (or Star Trek: Federation if the colon would be allowed in the Kelvin Timeline,) specifically given that the core of the story really focuses around why the Federation matters, and a villain with a rather significant beef with it. You could get away with even more descriptive titles too, but those would probably spoil the film more than the production crew would have likely wanted too. Don't get me wrong, I love "Beyond," I just wish it had a slightly less random title to match how amazing the film itself was. Still, the film could have been called Star Trek: Garbage Scow, and it would have still been awesome, so this is a minor criticism.

[Morgan]

Did everyone notice the parallel of Jaylah the scavenger living in an old Starfleet ship and Rey the scavenger living in an old AT-AT?

 

Gonna go see it again cause I'm forgetting what Krall's beef was with everybody and how/why it was explained that he lived so long and looks like that. Also, will try to find out how they just fired up that bike.

[VulcanFanatic]

The JJ Abrams era Star Trek movies are more of a parody of Star Trek than REAL Star Trek. I just sat through Star Trek beyond hoping for real Star trek again but I give up, it isn't going to happen with JJ Abrams in charge.

[1701D]

The JJ Abrams era Star Trek movies are more of a parody of Star Trek than REAL Star Trek. I just sat through Star Trek beyond hoping for real Star trek again but I give up, it isn't going to happen with JJ Abrams in charge.

*bangs head against brick wall*

What is "real" Star Trek? Describe it to me because in 50 years, Star Trek has been so many things. From Space Seed, Balance of Terror, Spock's Brain... to Encounter at Far Point, Yesterday's Enterprise, Best of Both Worlds, All good Things, Emissary, Far Beyond the Stars, In the Pale Moonlight, Caretaker, Year of Hell, Endgame, Scorpion, Broken Bow, These are the Voyages, Similitude, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, The Voyage Home, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, Generations, Nemesis, Into Darkness, Insurrection, Beyond, First Contact... Star Trek....

At what point in 50 years of storytelling, did real Star Trek present itself because in my mind, every Star Trek story is wildly different from the next. From The Cage to Beyond and further into Discovery, I don't think anyone can put their finger on what "real" Star Trek is.

There's good and bad Trek but are you really saying that Star Trek, Star Trek Into Darkness or Star Trek Beyond are worse movies than The Final Frontier or Insurrection or Nemesis? The excuse that the newer movies aren't "Star Trek" just won't work because what is Star Trek?

At the very core of every single Star Trek episode, film, book, whatever, is the fundamental values Gene Roddenberry envisaged for his series because whether it be Doomsday Machine or Into Darkness, both reflected aspects of society and humanity at the time. The argument fans have had over Abrams Trek are the same arguments fans had over TNG, DS9 and the Berman era, the same arguments they've had over the Nicholas Meyer and Harve Bennett era... so when will real Star Trek be real enough for you?

All filmed entertainment is subjective sure and I respect that, what appeals to you may not appeal to me and so on but to define what "real" Star Trek is? I don't buy it. Star Trek has always been reflective of the world we live in and none of the new movies have gone against that any more than any of the 10 movies that preceded 2009 did.

I've been critical of these movies myself, I grew up with the Berman era of Star Trek so that to me is what I identify as being Trek, moreso than the Original even but thats to do with how I remember Star Trek, and I've got to be honest, a lot of what is in these new movies is far better than anything Berman or Roddenberry ever did because now they actually have the money and the resources to realise what the future could look like, what warp speed could look like instead of just streaking white lines and stretched ships, and realise weird and wonderful alien races... Abrams, like Berman before him, like Harve Bennet before Berman have all been unfairly criticised for carrying on the mantle. No one knows what Roddenberry would have wanted to see, no one knows how he would have changed Star Trek but I'm certain he wouldn't be sat at his keyboard smashing out irrelevant nonsense about how this film or that series aren't "real" Star Trek.

To you, it might be that these movies don't live up to your expectations of what you think Star Trek should be, but to thousands of others, these movies are exactly what Star Trek has always been about and what should be about in the 21st century.

Star Trek is a group of hundreds of stories. Some good, some bad but that doesn't mean it isn't all REAL Star Trek. From The Cage to Beyond, and into Discovery, everything put to film by CBS or Paramount is REAL Star Trek - whether you like it or not is a personal pereference down to you to decide.

[Whirlygig]

What is "real" Star Trek? Describe it to me because in 50 years, Star Trek has been so many things.

We've all tried.  Over and over.

Here's my last try:

 

Remember when Star Trek was called "too cerebral" for television?  If you understand what that meant, then you ought to understand what real Star Trek is.  Not every episode of any series managed to achieve the same level of this, many of the most fan-loathed episodes failed (lizard Paris?), but still each series had its moments, yes, even VOY and ENT, and some of the Prime movies (but not all).  JJverse still hasn't had any such moments.  You can word salad a bunch of stuff about "political" or "contemporary issue" concepts rattling around in all the action but you still won't really be saying anything that demonstrates something more cerebral than anything else on the market right now.

[1701D]

We've all tried.  Over and over.
Here's my last try:
 
Remember when Star Trek was called "too cerebral" for television?  If you understand what that meant, then you ought to understand what real Star Trek is.  Not every episode of any series managed to achieve the same level of this, many of the most fan-loathed episodes failed (lizard Paris?), but still each series had its moments, yes, even VOY and ENT, and some of the Prime movies (but not all).  JJverse still hasn't had any such moments.  You can word salad a bunch of stuff about "political" or "contemporary issue" concepts rattling around in all the action but you still won't really be saying anything that demonstrates something more cerebral than anything else on the market right now.

Star Trek was called too cerebral and changed to be less cerebral. The Cage is the failed pilot and isn't representative of "real" Star Trek whatsoever...

I'm really sorry but the criticisms levelled at Abrams and the Kelvin movies are the same criticisms levelled at Berman and his team and were nonsense then as much as they are nonsense now. After suffering through numerous episodes that are about as "cerebral" as Spocks Brain and the utter drivel of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, Star Trek: The Slow Motion Picture and ridiculous Star Trek: Insurrection to name but a few of the bad Star Trek movies, Star Trek, Star Trek Into Darkness and Star Trek Beyond are hardly the worse or even less cerebral Star Trek movies or even stories. Sure they're bigger, louder and more action orientated but so was The Original Series or are you going to try and suggest that there was more of a cerebral quality to Spock Brain? Even the most popular Star Trek movie, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was not that cerebral. It was a movie about vengeance, a dark and gritty submarine movie... hardly what Roddenberry imagined Star Trek being... it was a smart, fun movie but so was Abrams Star Trek - neither WoK or ST were perfect pieces of cinema so what's the beef?

You can't say that real Star Trek is only the bits of an episode or movie that are in your mind, cerebral enough to be classed as real Star Trek.

Stop being so ridiculous. Real Star Trek is all Star Trek put in front of the camera by Paramount and CBS. If you can't understand that then perhaps those fans don't really "get" what "real" Star Trek is... because The Cage certainly isn't indicative of the Star Trek that went onto become the pioneering world wide TV phenomenon television series that has been spun off of for 50 years.

Give these movies a break, they're Star Trek to a lot of genuine Star Trek fans out there who, shock horror, might know more about what real Star Trek is than even you. Just saying.

What next... Star Trek: Discovery isn't real Star Trek because it looks different and isn't intelligent enough for us Star Trek fans? Well shit... (sorry for the language but man, it's bloody entertainment!!)