655 replies to this topic

[knightone]

Sounds like this could be the last new TOS wave, if not forever then for awhile. And sounds like they are claiming this wave includes the "top fan choices". Does anybody really believe that the top fan choices included these Kirk/Spock/McCoy variants?

Keep in mind that there are many that are unhappy with the original rubber shirts, especially with their longevity as most have not aged well. The sculpted torsos on these new versions solves that problem.

[Gothneo]

I think they are great choices. DST has said Kirk / Spock sell the best, so I think they struck a happy mix to get some much wanted characters (e.g. Chapel & Romulan cmdr) with Kirk & Spock releases to sell the line.

I've always considered Kirk / Spock & McCoy as the definitive "triumvirate" of TOS Trek, and I 've kind of felt McCoy hasn't been getting his share of love from DST.

If DST came right out and said they weren't making entire casts of every movie, I'd want 3 figures from ea TOS movie,and personally, I'd want them to be Kirk, Spock and McCoy.

Don't get me wrong, I always like more! But I'm just saying that McCoy is rather important to the dynamic of the Kirk & Spock characters, and as such he's pretty important IMO! Thus, while I hadn't really thought about a Sickbay TOS McCoy... I welcome it and am glad to have another version of McCoy!

[Whirlygig]

Keep in mind that there are many that are unhappy with the original rubber shirts, especially with their longevity as most have not aged well. The sculpted torsos on these new versions solves that problem.

I don't see how these figures solve any problems; none of them are exact duplicates of the old. The complaints about the old figures will remain until they have all been redone exactly as they originally appeared. Which probably ain't gonna happen in our lifetime, since they re-released Kirk/Spock with rubber already in TRU. If they do re-release K/S again, in same uniforms but sculpted, people will hear my forehead slap echoing halfway around the globe.

I think they are great choices. DST has said Kirk / Spock sell the best, so I think they struck a happy mix to get some much wanted characters (e.g. Chapel & Romulan cmdr) with Kirk & Spock releases to sell the line.
I've always considered Kirk / Spock & McCoy as the definitive "triumvirate" of TOS Trek, and I 've kind of felt McCoy hasn't been getting his share of love from DST.

Why not just the Romulan Kirk? That one makes sense to me. I'm really pumped about that one. And I would welcome Kirk in the new green getup without any resistance, if we lived in a world where we had enough villains and aliens that 30 Kirks in every single costume made sense.

I agree that McCoy has been neglected as compared to Kirk & Spock. But since he's coming out with 2 Kirks and 1 Spock, he is no less neglected respective to them than he was before, actually more neglected compared to Kirk, and now the rest of the crew is even more neglected than ever. If you count the as-yet-undisclosed TwT Kirk/Chair, since that might be yet another Kirk variant, we're getting like 1 McCoy for every 3 Kirks. Probably less, with all those Kirks in the TWOK series.

*sigh* Basically, here's what I have decided is going on. I don't think the statement "Kirk & Spock sell best" is true by itself, in our ideal world. I think it is true in the unfortunate world we live in. That world is one where sales of these figures just isn't good at all because the mainstream doesn't care. So, they don't really bring in enough money from it to be able to invest much back into it. So, they have to cut corners wherever possible. Therefore what I think is really going on is, "Kirk & Spock sell best -- as variants". They've identified them as the characters who they can most easily tweak little things about and then get the most sales out of. By maximizing profit in that way, they are able to keep puttering forward and releasing some other new ones along the way, but we will forever be tied to Kirk & Spock to keep the train moving. If the mainstream was Trek-crazy and these figures were selling at the rate of any other mainstream toy, then I believe they would be making many more new sculpts of aliens and other characters. In that world, I doubt Kirk & Spock would sell that much better than the rest.

So guess I better get over it. As we fans often say, any Trek is better than no Trek.

Sadly, I don't think the new movie will jump-start the mainstream hunger for classic or even TNG-era Trek. I expect the opposite to happen; mainstream will go nuts over it and denounce all the old stuff as culturally irrelevant to them. If I am proved wrong, I will dance a jig.

[Gothneo]

So... is the only figure your "upset" about in wave 5 the Spock then?

[Whirlygig]

So... is the only figure your "upset" about in wave 5 the Spock then?

Heh. I am not thrilled about any of the Big Three, except Romulan Kirk.
I'm drawing blanks as far as what other costumes we ever saw McCoy in, though, so I can't think of an alternative other than a dress uniform. If they had made Spock a dress uniform as well, then a Sarek variant would give us a little Journey to Babel set. Maybe that's the SDCC secret plan.
If you want to know what I'd want in this wave in a perfect world, the answer is anything BUT Kirk/Spock/McCoy. Chapel was good, Rand would be good, the salt vampire is great (but not even confirmed yet, is he?), Romulan Kirk is great... Where is our TOS Andorian? Talosian? Mudd? Balok 2-pack with real & fake? Tellarite? Mugato? Romulan crewman w/helmet? Cheron? Etc? How about a TAS figure like Arex or M'Ress? Where is the diversity? I loved the Vina/Kor/Gorn/BDKirk line. Once the full 7 crew members were released, we needed that kind of variety in every wave, with one pick of Kirk/Spock/McCoy variant and all the rest as aliens. Didn't that line sell pretty well? They are all hard to get now. In my ideal world we'd be getting lots of baddies & aliens.

[knightone]

I don't see how these figures solve any problems; none of them are exact duplicates of the old. The complaints about the old figures will remain until they have all been redone exactly as they originally appeared. Which probably ain't gonna happen in our lifetime, since they re-released Kirk/Spock with rubber already in TRU. If they do re-release K/S again, in same uniforms but sculpted, people will hear my forehead slap echoing halfway around the globe.

If they did them exactly the same, you'd probably hear more complaints about them not bothering with being more creative. They aren't going to please everyone, but they can please the majority of people by releasing new versions of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Casual collectors will be able to find the big three, which is what they would mostly be interested in. Hardcore collectors can find better, improved versions of the big three, yet are different enough from the original releases that they can get something new. You may not be pleased, but the majority of DST's customers are and will be pleased by this release.

[Whirlygig]

You may not be pleased, but the majority of DST's customers are and will be pleased by this release.

I hope you don't think I'm trying to be argumentative just for the heck of it or something. I'm pleased as Punch to be getting a new wave at all. Just giving my thoughts on the choices. I'm not sure how anyone can claim to definitely know what a majority of DST's customers are thinking, though. For that matter, shouldn't they also care what people who aren't their customers think...isn't that crucial to expanding the customer base?

[Gothneo]

Once the full 7 crew members were released, we needed that kind of variety in every wave, with one pick of Kirk/Spock/McCoy variant and all the rest as aliens. Didn't that line sell pretty well?

Series 1 & 2 did. But by the time Series 3 and 4 came around... apparently not so much... DSTChuck says so here...

I

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[knightone]

Trying to get new customers is exactly why they are releasing a new version of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. New versions of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are only boring for the hardcore, dedicated collector. For the casual fan and/or collector, the big three are what they care about and what will catch their eye. If the majority of DST's customers weren't buying the multiple variations of Kirk and Spock. DST wouldn't be doing multiple versions of Kirk and Spock. That is what sells. That's why they do it. It's a business. They have to make money. Kirk and Spock make money. The only reason we are able to get a Salt Vampire and a Nurse Chapel is because they sell a ton of Kirks and Spocks. In order to be able to push this wave, they have to inclulde them in it.

Say, have you met New Frontier? You guys seem to have a lot in common.


What you aren't understanding is what actually sells, what actually makes money, and that DST is trying to run a business (i.e. make money) so they have to do what they can to run their business responsibly. Maybe you aren't getting everything you want and have asked for, but you're never going to get everything you want. If you step back and look at the line as a whole, I think you will see that we have gotten a number of things that we've wanted and asked for. Not everything but, as I said, none of us are ever going to get every single thing we want and ask for. But they have given us some things and fulfilled some requests from the fan base. In turn, they have to balance that out with the more "boring" releases that will attract casual and non-dedicated fans and collectors. Which means they have to release a new Kirk or Spock at regular intervals for those that could care less about the secondary and more ancillary characters or the random alien-of-the-week. When the laymen thinks of Star Trek, they think Kirk and Spock. So what they are looking for or what will catch their attention and interest is Kirk and Spock or even Picard and Data.

[Whirlygig]

Series 1 & 2 did. But by the time Series 3 and 4 came around... apparently not so much... DSTChuck says so here...

I remember reading that but was confused which wave he was calling which. So it sounds like Wave 4 is Mirror, Mirror (MM)?

Ok. Well, that sucks. Before I decided to become an AA/DST figure completist, I had resolved that I was just going to pick up the coolest variants of each figure and not fall into "swap a head, make some cash" schemes. For TOS, I always thought Mirror, Mirror was one of my favorite episodes so I picked up that whole line and that was going to be it as far as TOS crew sculpts. So, that is interesting that the set I thought was awesome and purchased immediately, came mostly from the worst-selling wave of all, and my other favorite TOS wave was the second-worst-selling. =p

But IMO you can't really compare sales of Wave 4 to Wave 3, and draw any useful conclusions, then, can you? Wave 4 was a whole lotta figures that people already had. The casual buyer would be like "I already have these guys, where are my new characters?" Maybe the poor performance of Wave 3 was still, as they said, an anomaly.

[Whirlygig]

Trying to get new customers is exactly why they are releasing a new version of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.
...<snip>

Regarding the last stuff you said, did you see my final conclusions in Post #23? I already sort of came to the same conclusions that you just reiterated.
http://www.trektoy.c...o...ost&p=33656

Regarding the first thing you said...I'm not so sure a new customer would want Kirk in a green tunic and McCoy with bare, hairy arms. They might like the "fascinating" Spock but that's supposed to be in a 2-pack, isn't it, which makes that one a harder sell to the casual fan. I think new customers would like them in their iconic uniforms, as they are seen most of the time, and I thought that was the point of the TRU deal & re-releases. If all they keep filling the shelf with after those 2 reissues is more Kirk & Spock, the casual buyer has no reason to come back.

//edit: I beg to differ that Joe Casual could care less about aliens-of-the-week. Once he has the main 3 "good guys", he needs some iconic "bad guys" to round that off. And he definitely needs some babes for Kirk to put the moves on.

[TheHSBR]

I persoannly thought he was referring to the minimates in that discussion but I could be wrong...
As for the MM set that was a SDCC exclusive even though it was readily available elsewhere which would also be a huge dropoff for sales. Many people still dont order online and only purchase in brick and motars.

[Whirlygig]

I persoannly thought he was referring to the minimates in that discussion but I could be wrong...

Hey, you're right. Phew. So now I can go back to thinking that TOS Wave 3 sold well until some more evidence to the contrary is brought forth! ;p

[Gothneo]

Ah ha! Good to know!

I don't know if wave 3 did sell that well... but I'm also not sure if the numbers are really indicative of just Trek... see that was about the time all the boutique shops started to meltdown... Media play /Sam Goody which was supporting the line started to contract and close stores. This trend continued until we are where we are today... basically with only 1 or 2 of these types of stores even in existence anymore and those that are focus more on core product and less on these types of collectibles.

I recall people saying they had difficulties finding it... and the T&T Bashir did become one of the more difficult figures to find.

I guess the point is that wave after wave of different types of Trek merch has been trending downward?

Hopefully TOS will reverse this. I'm like you Whirlygig, I liked the Mirror Mirror stuff and collected it, but from the outset I wasn't collecting all the DST variants... until ultimately I found many on sale. Now that DST has droped most Variants (from the last few TNG & DS9 waves) I've been buying more actually... mostly to make custom figures... so In the 1st few TNG waves I was only plunking full retail cash for 2 or 3 figures, but now I typically buy 6 to 8 per wave... so maybe that justifies what others are saying, offer variety and sales will actually increase?

[Quadrotritacale]

After seeing some of the posts in this thread, I'd just like to say something in defense of the new Spock sculpt. As someone who is extremely picky about which figures I buy, wanting only to buy the ones that I think have sculpts which VERY accurately represent the actor they're based on (although I made an exception for young Khan just because I love the character so much), I, for one, am thrilled with the wave 5 Spock. It will probably be the first Spock I buy. Of the "Big Three", I have only bought McCoy, because his was the only sculpt in the first wave that I thought strongly resembled the actor he was based on. I've been waiting for really solid Kirk and Spock sculpts. Wave 5 looks to feature the best Kirk and Spock sculpts yet, so I am very happy with yet another Kirk and Spock being released. If they were simply released with new clothes and the same head sculpt, I'd agree that the Kirk and Spock releases are just too excessive, but when they release new ones with sculpts as improved as these wave 5 ones appear to me, I think we should all be very grateful.

[knightone]

Regarding the last stuff you said, did you see my final conclusions in Post #23? I already sort of came to the same conclusions that you just reiterated.
http://www.trektoy.c...o...ost&p=33656

Regarding the first thing you said...I'm not so sure a new customer would want Kirk in a green tunic and McCoy with bare, hairy arms. They might like the "fascinating" Spock but that's supposed to be in a 2-pack, isn't it, which makes that one a harder sell to the casual fan. I think new customers would like them in their iconic uniforms, as they are seen most of the time, and I thought that was the point of the TRU deal & re-releases. If all they keep filling the shelf with after those 2 reissues is more Kirk & Spock, the casual buyer has no reason to come back.

//edit: I beg to differ that Joe Casual could care less about aliens-of-the-week. Once he has the main 3 "good guys", he needs some iconic "bad guys" to round that off. And he definitely needs some babes for Kirk to put the moves on.

It offers more choices to the casual buyer. It also offers a chance for the casual buyer that might have come in after the first release or even the reissue. It is a chance to bring in completely new customers. As for casual buyers wanting figures other than the big three, most casual fans don't want a shelf full of plastic figures, just a set of the two or three important characters. Non-Trek collectors as well, may not care to have anything other than a display of Kirk and Spock and, maybe, McCoy to have two or three figures representative of Trek. They aren't looking for a big Trek collection nor a Trek display, just an iconic representation of the franchise. You're looking at this too much from the POV of a hardcore Trek fan and Trek collector. Some aren't hardcore. Some aren't both. Some aren't either. We are in the minority, not the majority and DST has to be able to please the majority for the sake of keeping both their business and this license afloat.

The guys and gals at DST are, for the most part, Trek fans just like us. There are a lot of things that we have asked for that they, personally, would love to do and see released themselves. If they could, they would. I know you can't bring yourself to believe that, but its true. They cannot, however, be driven by their tastes as fans. They have to think about what is best for their business. They have to think about what keeps them in business and, therefore, keep them working so they can keep on doing what they love to do. Every so often, they get to sneak something in that we wanted to see and they really wanted to do. They can't do that all the time because it is unrealistic, they'd run the license completely into the ground and run themselves out of business if they catered only to what remains of the collector base.

If you think you can do better, then raise the capital and bid on the license. See how much that costs to begin with even before you've produced anything. Then make only the products that you've wished and wanted for and see for yourself just how well your line does. Then you can rightfully complain to us about how DST ignores us and is somehow deliberately sabotaging the license by not catering to your wishes. If you think you know how a business like DST should be run, then I would love to see you give it a try and see what decisions you end up making once real world results hit your desk.

[Whirlygig]

I guess we have different ideas about what a casual buyer is, or what he might like. I get what you're saying...but there are some people out there who really dig the cheesy aliens that we have yet to get many of. Some who collect bits and pieces from various franchises/licenses might be more interested in those than any main cast members at all. There are a lot of people into the "weird and monstrous" factor when it comes to collectibles. I'm personally almost of that feeling myself when it comes to TOS since it is my least favorite series and I don't actually have all that much affection for TV Kirk or McCoy (more for the movie incarnations) -- though I do like Spock & Scotty. I know not everyone is like me, but there might be more of me than they realize.

Anyway, point taken. I know it ain't easy. I can tell you don't like it when that New Frontier guy and I say we wish they would take more risks, or put out a better variety, because you think we just don't know anything. All we can do is think about what we as fans are looking for and voice that, and see what happens. But seriously dude, that last paragraph of yours was a little uncalled for. As far as I know, I can rightfully complain about whatever I want, whether I try and launch my own toy company first or not. No need to talk down to me as if you're the one with all the experience and anyone else can either agree or stop talking.

[knightone]

But seriously dude, that last paragraph of yours was a little uncalled for. As far as I know, I can rightfully complain about whatever I want, whether I try and launch my own toy company first or not. No need to talk down to me as if you're the one with all the experience and anyone else can either agree or stop talking.

I wasn't talking down to you. But i think you made your point some time ago as others before you have as well. The same argument has been heard, ad nauseum. There was even a poll put up and even most of the hardcore collectors here are mostly satisfied with what DST is doing. And DST wouldn't be doing what they are doing if they haven't tried a lot of things before and found this is the formula that works best and makes them enough money to warrant continuing the license. They have had the license for a while and have resources that you and I do not have access to in order to determine what is best for their business. The arguments you bring up are the same ones hashed over and over again. At some point you have to accept what the evidence presented shows you and move on. And its not like DST doesn't take risks at all. The DS9 figures were a risk. The Borg figures are a risk. The sheer cost of the Trek Tek and ship releases are a risk and they are giving us a TWOK communicator and an complement of Excelsior class ships. They do what the fans ask for, it's just that they have to strike a balance between that and what has shown to sell best. There is a bigger picture they have to look at and a bottom line they have to meet. They are trying their best to meet us halfway, but we have to meet them there as well.

[FHC]

If I might add, AA started out the the Enterprise figures when their business sense told them that TOS was the way to start. Of course Paramount had just unveiled Enterprise and wanted that to go first. Starting with Enterprise figures almost bankrupted them. Hence, their first incomplete lines, disappointing sales from brick and mortar stores.

I can only speak for the business I run. I want to give every customer what they want, but that is just not in the cards. (this example has happened BTW) Say I have ten people call from an area that is just beyond the area that we service, and they want me to run my trucks just a bit more to service them. Trouble is they are on the edge of what is making me enough money to make the owners of my company happy now. So, I take a chance and I expand to provide service to them in the hopes that more then just the 10 people that I hear from are wanting service as well. Then, after expanding the route, spending extra money on overtime, fuel, and too many other things to list, after 6 months, I only have the first 10 and 3 more for a total of 13 people. The expansion into that area is now sucking profit from the previous area that was turning a profit. So, I have to call them all up and let them know that I can no longer service them and I pull the route back to what makes the owners of the company money.

As we all know, the first priority of an American business is to make a profit. Without that, it does not survive. Can anyone here tell me what DST's profit margin is per figure? I can tell you this, for the company I work for, ANYTHING less then a 20% return on the investment is not considered worth doing.


NOW this line of posting (as well as my post here) belongs in this thread http://www.trektoy.c...?showtopic=2412 so please take it there. I have to be honest, I do not want to see every thread about DST products end up on a debate about their business practices. Please take it to the link posted right there . If not, then the staff and I might just start moving them there. I'm sure that you all understand. When someone logs in and sees a thread called WAVE 5 they want to read about WAVE 5. If I logged in and saw a thread called The New Camaro, I don't want to read about a Ford Mustang.

Thanks

[BadBunnyMike]

Boy...I read like 15 posts in this page that were not even really related to TOS Wave 5