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Star Trek 4 (14)


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#121 Whirlygig

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 03:32 PM

If you're using the Star Wars Prequels as some definitive statement of Lucas being a hack, then Peter Jackson is a hack since The Hobbit Trilogy is regarded as being garbage compared to Lord of the Rings.

The problem with the Prequels was Lucas being surrounded by yes men that wouldn’t tell him no. Lucas was heavily involved with The Clone Wars tv show, but had Dave Filoni with him to help, and it was an amazing series.

 

Well, that's what makes Lucas enough of "something" for me to casually substitute the word "hack" for that something.

 

You don't get to be credited as a genius, when you repeatedly demonstrate that you can only produce quality output with a host of others actively steering you.  Even for the OT there are many tales of the others supporting him and shaping his ideas from their original form (as rough ideas that you and I could come up with in an afternoon) into the refined final product.  For example, things as small as the fact that his wife is responsible for Chewbacca being what he is, and as large as Kasdan being an obvious reason Empire is what it is.

 

Nobody does it alone.  A genius like, to pull a random one from my own idols, say Jim Henson would go out of his way make sure you were aware of the fact that he did not do it alone.  (Meanwhile, I think Lucas would default to claiming he did it alone if he thought he could get away with it, which simply is never true and yet that betrays his 'hack'-ness even more...narcissism)...   And yet, Henson stands as a genius and giant whose shoulders many have since stood on.  So does Spielberg.  Productions got better because he got involved (e.g. Gremlins, Poltergeist), or even when it was mostly him driving.  Productions appear to get worse the less people are helping cover for Lucas.

 

I can't say the same thing about Abrams, he just is what he is.  Nice guy, makes successful shows and films, but not much that really speaks to me or commands my highest praise (for whatever it's worth).

 

And Lucas, for that matter -- great ideas (some would question their originality but hey, like I said, nobody does it alone and that includes genesis of ideas), film icon, and all that ... but ... someone who seems over-rated.

 

I suppose, in general, that's really what I mean by "hack" if I should ever say it in conversation -- over-rated.  Because you just know most of these people let it all get to their heads, and I don't like to see that happening if it's not well earned.  And you're darn right Michael Bay is a hack.  This discussion is obviously NOT about monetary value, it's about quality.



#122 Gothneo

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 05:12 PM

Ooooooo! I forgot about Michael Bay! Yeah. Absolutely!



#123 Alteran195

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 06:56 PM

Michael Bay is absolutely a hack. Everything he makes or is involved with is trash.

#124 1701D

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 07:52 PM

Michael Bay, Bret Ratner, Joel Schumacher... all terrible filmmakers.

Going back to Star Trek 4. Seems as though Zachary Quinto has said something about multiple scripts being developed and that the Tarantino idea is just one of a few, including a script being written by Simon Pegg and Doug Jung... interesting.

The other interesting factor that could play an important part in a 4th movie is that CBS could very well buy Viacom... if true and this deal goes through, it could see Star Trek under one roof for the first time since 2005...

That to me is the bigger of the two stories because if CBS does indeed buy Viacom then surely thats good news for Star Trek. Creatively though that potentially means that if this deal goes ahead, what could that mean for the Kelvin Timeline? Would it still exist? The very reason it had to exist was due to the split between Paramount and CBS...

My thoughts are that if Star Trek is to be one again, they cast (if they havent already) Bruce Greenwood and Zachary Quinto as Pike and Spock respectively in Discovery and then in the manner of a soft reboot of sorts, they use the current Kelvin Timeline cast as the prime timeline versions of the classic crew, retelling the story of how Kirk met Spock and McCoy and weaving cameos in from the Discovery cast potentially... I think whatever we see from the next movie, it will be some kind of soft reboot anyway so it would be quite cool to either tell the prime timeline origin story of how Kirk met Spock and McCoy, you could cast Chris Hemsworth as Prime George Kirk or just place your next movie and retell the 5 year mission from TOS with todays movie cast. For the mainstream audience, theyd just see the established Star Trek movie cast back and for fans theyd finally see a prime timeline movie based upon THE TOS 5 year mission stories (albeit redesigned in the style of Discovery).

#125 Alteran195

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 08:15 PM

The actors for the Kelvin crew are probably not cheap. Same goes for Chris Hemsworth.


I doubt wed get them all, and would really only expect Pike and Spock to show up with how far before TOS the show is.

#126 1701D

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 10:47 AM

The actors for the Kelvin crew are probably not cheap. Same goes for Chris Hemsworth.


I doubt wed get them all, and would really only expect Pike and Spock to show up with how far before TOS the show is.

Id only really expect Pike and Spock to feature in Discovery- you could cast Boyce and Number 1 etc... if the merger goes ahead though Id love to see a cross over movie where we see the current movie cast portray the prime versions of themselves on the Enterprise we saw at the end of Discovery, 9 years after the events of Discovery and leading into TMP.

There has to be conversations happening at some high up level in the CBS Trek camp as well as the Bad Robot Trek camp discussing the potential possibility of Star Trek under the one roof.

Would Bad Robot step in to produce Discovery as well? Not sure of Abrams relationship with Les Moonves, who would be heading up the new CBS/Viacom studio, but a single franchise under the one studio could be easier to work with than two studios competing with each other...

#127 Alteran195

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 12:01 PM

I think itd be confusing to switch the movies from the Kelvin Timeline to Prime if they keep the same actors.

If they do another movie with the same actors, keep it in the Kelvin Timeline and put them on that shiny new Enterprise A.

I know I said the Kelvin crew is probably too expensive, but they could do some kind of crossover on Discovery. Having them accidentally jump into the Kelvin Timeline like they did with the Mirror Universe, that has potential to be very interesting.

If the merger happens, its possible CBS will throw more money at Discovery to do something like that as a one time thing.

Or abandon that timeline completely, doesnt matter much either way at this point, but itd be a waste.

#128 1701D

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 04:56 AM

Perhaps, but its also entirely possible that whatever comes next from the Kelvin Timeline will be a visual reboot of some kind.

Also these characters are meant to look the same as they did in TOS - Spock prime recognised both Kirk and Scotty in the 2009 movie and so its not so far fetched to use the current movie cast as the prime versions of themselves - lets be honest here, none of the TOS cast are young enough to play their roles so whats the more confusing; using the established Kelvin cast in the Discovery/Prime timeline or recasting yet again another version of Spock and co...

To most, it wont matter, Quinto is Spock and Pine is Kirk to them, to us fans, it would add some continuity and legitimacy to the Kelvin films by using the same cast in both timelines...

#129 Alteran195

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 10:07 AM

They should definitely have the same cast in both universes, I just think it needs a legit crossover with the Enterprise A coming to the Prime Timeline, or Discovery going to the Kelvin Timeline on the show or in a movie.

Pike and Spock I think they can get away with on Discovery because that’s established to be Prime.

But suddenly changing universes, and having the same crew we’ve seen in three movies suddenly be on a different Enterprise, in a different universe, and completely abandoning any character development and story from those movies is a bad idea.

Having a crossover means we can have characters from either timeline face a different universe that have more similarities to each other than the Mirror Universe. It could also show why the spore drive is dangerous.

Kirk coming face to face with his father, Spock being reunited with his mother and Vulcan not being destroyed.

Michael potentially meeting her parents, and a version of herself where she wasn’t raised by Vulcans. Learning of Vulcans destruction, and death of Amanda.

There is a lot more potential with a crossover story than just jumping away from the Kelvin Universe entirely, and just keeping the same actors.

#130 Whirlygig

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 10:13 AM

Isn't all that the kind of navel-gazing self-referential canonical-nightmarish stuff that everyone (except me) already agreed long ago was what killed the franchise in the first place, leaving these so-called "casual viewers" who may or may not actually exist out there confused?

 

I mean, I'm fine with it, but in the current climate it may be extreme wishful thinking.

 

Anyone supporting that sort of stuff, I don't want to hear complaining about 24th century timeline/universe/canon-bending antics ever again:P  In that event, story is why the spore drive was a dangerous idea!



#131 Gothneo

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 10:46 AM

Isn't all that the kind of navel-gazing...

 

I understood you contextually... but had never heard that actual term... so I asked mother google and I'll be dashed! Webster actually defined it!

 

na·vel-gaz·ing

ˈnāvəl ɡāziNG/
noun
 
  1. self-indulgent or excessive contemplation of oneself or a single issue, at the expense of a wider view.
    "he lapsed into his customary navel-gazing"
 
 

 

and I do agree... I also think its a bit lazy from a writing perspective.



#132 Alteran195

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 12:15 PM

One of the early rumors was bringing back George Kirk. If the merger happens, what better way to do it than bringing the Enterprise A to the Prime Timeline?

Id prefer that over a typical time travel story.

#133 Damon1984

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 12:54 PM

I for one am a bit sick of time travel or parallel universes (or Borg or Klingons or Section 31...). If they have to bring back George Kirk, I'd like it/him to be something entirely different, like in the Movie "Contact", when Ellie met her "Dad" at the end. But I guess that's wishful thinking. It's all about names and gimmicks now :/



#134 Gothneo

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 03:37 PM

I don't know that I'd consider many of the Trek Movies as philosophical or insightful as contact... some that attempted it like Final Frontier are generally panned. I don't disagree with you... its just, as you've pointed out... it seems you have to go to something like Contact to get that kind of fix. 

 

Also I think time travel can work as the premise for a movie... Looper, Primer, Donnie Darko are all great examples where Time travel is used very effectively as the mcguffin to make the real plot and story work. 



#135 Damon1984

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 05:58 AM

Sure. We had lots of great and fun Trek episodes (and movies) using time travel. But... as a gimmik, it has been overused. At least in my opinion. It's Star Trek after all, not Time Trek. The galaxy is so big, there are so many possibilities... there's just no need to leave the milky way, the present (of the future) and the prime/kelvin-Universe so often. At this point, it feels like Starfleet Officers have to be more concerned about meeting their future/past/parallel selfes instead of meating aliens. :P

 

And the philosophical or insightful aspect... Well, I'd be perfectly happy for the movies to be "just" simple fun adventure/action romps... as long as I get my other "fix" from a Trek show once in a while. But in that regard, I have already lost hope 8[



#136 Gothneo

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 08:09 AM

Can't disagree Damon1984!  Its been a complaint of mine too. I know people don't consider it one of the better Trek Movies, but I really liked Insurrection... and it had no time travel gimicks. Of course that true of a number of trek movies... some of my favs of which  TWOK,  TUC, and INS.



#137 Damon1984

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 01:26 PM

Insurrection is one of my favorites. :) While it had some cheesy moments, it's pretty much one of the few (or only?) trek movies that still sparks debates (whether or not the Ba'ku or Dougherty were in the wrong). And while we are at it; I'd like to give Final Frontier a bit love. Never got the hate for it. Sure, it's production values are subpar, but it kinda counters that with a lot of heart and warmth. The Crew really felt like a family here. It's propably nothing for casual viewers, but... I have a soft spot for it. Both movies were pretty close to their respective shows.

But I digress.

 

Back to Star Trek 4. Simon Pegg just clarified, that he is not writing the script for the fourth movie: https://trekmovie.co...-trek-4-script/

 

Bummer. I liked Beyond and I had hoped for Pegg and Young (and Lin?) to return :/

 

It's also a bit confusing. As far as I know, there are 3 scripts right now. The first one is written by J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay and is, apparently, about George Kirk returning in whatever capacity. The second one is based on Tarantino's idea and is written by Mark Smith. So, if Pegg and Young are out... who wrote the third script?



#138 Gothneo

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 05:10 PM

Beyond, it seems almost got there... but then it became something like the Italian Job in Space.



#139 MisterPL

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 06:46 AM

I'm up for two films as long as they're both good.

 

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#140 Gothneo

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 11:29 AM

I think this is good news.... maybe they are trying to be a bit more forward thinking? I actually would rather they take notice of the wars franchise.... Im liking the a Star Wars story theme.... lets them tell a tale w/o a Skywalker in it.

I wouldnt mind if they did a normal trek and a Star Trek story themed movie.




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