Jump to content


Photo

The Future of the Diamond Select Star Trek line


  • Please log in to reply
269 replies to this topic

Poll: Expanding DST's Star Trek licence (32 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you want to see DST get a licence to cover both the JJ Abrams movies and the new 2017 TV series?

  1. Yes absolutely I'd love to see DST produce product for both as well as the older shows and films! (13 votes [39.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.39%

  2. No, some other toy company needs to take on Trek. (11 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  3. Yes but just product based on the JJ Abrams movies as well as their already established TOS - ENT era product (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Yes but just product based on the new TV series as well as their already established TOS - ENT line (2 votes [6.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.06%

  5. No but continue with the TOS - ENT era of the Star Trek franchise. (7 votes [21.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.21%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#141 Alteran195

Alteran195

    Their ACTION FIGURES, not dolls!!

  • Members
  • 3,461 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 07 October 2016 - 04:11 PM

Drama aside that actually brings up an interesting point.  Was the Klingon BOP developed first or the Excelsior/Enterprise-B?  I know that BOP was released first.

I thought the B released first? I remember seeing the Excelsior and B prototypes ages ago, but don't remember when the BoP showed up. 

 

Edit: So it looks like the Excelsior and B were first shown in 2009, but I cant find anything about the initial reveal of the BoP. 

 

Edit 2: The BoP and B both shipped in January of 2013. Based on the posts in both threads on this forum, The BoP was around 1/7 while apparently I was the first person to get a B here, which was on 1/26.



#142 1701D

1701D

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, United Kingdom

Posted 08 October 2016 - 12:13 PM

Drama aside that actually brings up an interesting point.  Was the Klingon BOP developed first or the Excelsior/Enterprise-B?  I know that BOP was released first.


im not sure where you're seeing drama?

They were both developed at the same time but the BoP I think came first.

Either way, DST aren't going to suddenly start lighting the windows of their bigger ships. The reason the Romulan Bird of Prey has lit windows is because of the small number of windows making it cheape to do. It also adds something to a very simple looking design.

If people here are now expecting the Reliant to have the lit windows then I'd probably start reigning in your excitement. The cost to have every single window cut out as well as having a clear translucent plastic piece that slots in behind the plastic used for the hull would be prohibitively expensive. Not to mention the extra LED lighting that's would need to be added to the ship.

#143 Razorgeist

Razorgeist

    I know FHC by name.

  • Members
  • 505 posts

Posted 08 October 2016 - 10:40 PM

 

im not sure where you're seeing drama? 

 

 

You're recent posts.

 

I thought the B released first? I remember seeing the Excelsior and B prototypes ages ago, but don't remember when the BoP showed up. 

 

Edit: So it looks like the Excelsior and B were first shown in 2009, but I cant find anything about the initial reveal of the BoP. 

 

Edit 2: The BoP and B both shipped in January of 2013. Based on the posts in both threads on this forum, The BoP was around 1/7 while apparently I was the first person to get a B here, which was on 1/26.

 

 My question was regarding which was developed first.  I was wondering if the BOP was developed a little later than the the Ent-B due to its lighted windows and slightly better detail.



#144 1701D

1701D

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, United Kingdom

Posted 09 October 2016 - 06:09 AM

 
You're recent posts.


I'd hardly call my recent posts dramatic.

ITS DEAD JIM, OH MY GOOD LORD WHY!!!!!!!!! WHY DST? WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS TO OUR BELOVED STAR TREK?!?!?! LOOK, REAL TEARS 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

RIP DST, SO MANY GOOD PRODUCT GONE.
 

My question was regarding which was developed first.  I was wondering if the BOP was developed a little later than the the Ent-B due to its lighted windows and slightly better detail.


I think the BoP came first

#145 Alteran195

Alteran195

    Their ACTION FIGURES, not dolls!!

  • Members
  • 3,461 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 09 October 2016 - 06:59 PM

According to DST, the Excelsior was first. 



#146 Jay K

Jay K

    It's not a disease it's a hobby.

  • Members
  • 1,914 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Liverpool, England
  • Interests:Music, Star Trek, and gaming.

Posted 09 October 2016 - 08:24 PM

Lit windows or not, being as it's 2016, I'd expect to see the line grow in terms of features. I'd expect the shuttlebay doors to be illuminated on the Reliant at least. The ship has no deflector dish, so it shouldn't be wishing for too much.

#147 Razorgeist

Razorgeist

    I know FHC by name.

  • Members
  • 505 posts

Posted 09 October 2016 - 10:19 PM

Lit windows or not, being as it's 2016, I'd expect to see the line grow in terms of features. I'd expect the shuttlebay doors to be illuminated on the Reliant at least. The ship has no deflector dish, so it shouldn't be wishing for too much.

 

Plus havent LED's and electronics gotten cheaper and easier to use.

 

 

According to DST, the Excelsior was first.

 

 

Thanks for that.



#148 1701D

1701D

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, United Kingdom

Posted 10 October 2016 - 06:45 AM

Perhaps the problem with diamond select, and let's not kid ourselves, there is a problem here with this line, is that more and more fans want something other than TOS.

I can't be sure but I'd be willing to bet that most of us here came into loving Star Trek through The Next Generation onwards.

I think it's a problem the franchise has itself, there's too much emphasis on The Original Series when actually most Star Trek fans got into Star Trek through TNG and that era of Trek.

It doesn't solve the issue of DSTs line being lame, but it might suggest that the fans who have the disposable income and are of the age to still want to collect aren't really all that interested in product from a show before their time - no matter how much they might love TOS now, I personally think that more people would want to see TNG product onwards.

The other point I'd like to make is that I feel as though there's too much choice for Star Trek fans to really ever want to start collecting. With Star Wars it's easy; Hasbro and Lego primarily are the bread and butter of Star Wars collecting. You have Hot Toys and other collectable lines out there but nothing as extensive as the Star Wars lines Hasbro and Lego put out.

With Star Trek you have these companies who come in, start a line then for whatever reason (primarily due to its financial success) drop it before it really cements itself. As a result you're left with a lot of incomplete lines of product that really turn Collectors away.

Lines are left without the time needed to establish themselves. In 50 years two companies have succeeded to establish their toy lines; Playmates and Diamond Select.

I think now we are at a point with Star Trek, Star Trek Into Darkness, Star Trek Beyond and Star Trek: Discovery where there needs to be that well established, bread and butter line for fans new and old to be enticed back into collecting Star Trek again.

I don't think diamond are up to that anymore. I think Star Trek should head back to Playmates. The reason being is because the Playmates line in the 90's was probably the most well established Star Trek toy line ever. By building on their 90's range, in a similar way to how they've built upon their TMNT line, with a new line of toys based upon Star Trek: Discovery.

That might not be next year, but a line of toys will undoubtably come out of Discovery at some point.

Along with a line of Disovery sets from Mega Bloks, I think we could once again have a well established, successful Star Trek line that collectors want to collect.

This is of course, dependant on whether or not CBS want to tap into a younger audience. Either way, I'm finding it harder and harder to really understand Diamonds place in the Star Trek merchandise empire.

#149 VorlonKosh

VorlonKosh

    The card is maxed out.

  • Members
  • 259 posts

Posted 10 October 2016 - 04:31 PM

the romulan bird of prey and the reliant are the 2 smallest ships DST could produce.  They look smaller than past offerings while still being in the same aspect ratio as the original enterprise.  I fear that they won't produce anymore ships after these are done because bigger ships would be out of the price point that they are selling their ships for.  What other smaller ships could they produce while still being in line with the existing ships?  Voyager? Defiant?  They certainly would not be as big as the playmates versions.



#150 1701D

1701D

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, United Kingdom

Posted 10 October 2016 - 06:18 PM

Apart from the Enterprise C which isn't at all certain to be made, Voyager and the Defiant are the last two Starfleet ships DST could do that would sell to more than just a handful of fans.

The C, Borg Cube, Romulan D'deridex Warbird are nice ideas but really?

There's no certainty that DST will even release the Reliant if the Romulan Bird of Prey doesn't sell well at all (it's a gamble... this is a ship that isn't as iconic or as popular as the Klingon Bird of Prey). I guess it depends on how far they are along with the Reliant but since we've not seen anything apart from a computer render then I'm not sure everyone should be so assuming that we will even see it.

#151 Razorgeist

Razorgeist

    I know FHC by name.

  • Members
  • 505 posts

Posted 10 October 2016 - 08:14 PM

the romulan bird of prey and the reliant are the 2 smallest ships DST could produce.  They look smaller than past offerings while still being in the same aspect ratio as the original enterprise.  I fear that they won't produce anymore ships after these are done because bigger ships would be out of the price point that they are selling their ships for.  What other smaller ships could they produce while still being in line with the existing ships?  Voyager? Defiant?  They certainly would not be as big as the playmates versions.

 

Um Im not quite sure what you're getting at they also did the Enterprise-D and Ent-E in their own scale.  Hell even the Excelsior isn't to scale with the Enterprise-A or TOS Enterprise.  They seem to be using multiple scales.



#152 1701D

1701D

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, United Kingdom

Posted 11 October 2016 - 05:24 AM

 
Um Im not quite sure what you're getting at they also did the Enterprise-D and Ent-E in their own scale.  Hell even the Excelsior isn't to scale with the Enterprise-A or TOS Enterprise.  They seem to be using multiple scales.

I think what he's saying is that he believes we're unlikely to get bigger ships since the price would be prohibitively expensive. If you look at the price for a 9 inch by 12 inch Romulan Bird of Prey, it's as expensive as the Enterprise D was when that was reissued last year.

The Reliant too will be a ship similar in size to the Romulan Bird of Prey. The Defiant as well

So future ships after the Reliant, if they come and if they are ships like the Enterprise C (which I'm guessing many here would want inscale with the D) would either be smaller or not be made at all because the price point to make it in scale with the D would be above what DST wants to price these ships at.

You'd be looking at a ship that was $85/$90 if not more - who would pay that for a ship only seen once. Everyone here perhaps but I doubt joe public would be that keen.

I'm a TNG fanboy and I wouldn't pay above that for a DST ship when I know Eaglemoss are doing all of the Enterprise ships at a larger scale and at a better standard of detail and quality too.

#153 Whirlygig

Whirlygig

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,432 posts

Posted 11 October 2016 - 08:24 AM

I think it's pretty obvious that the writing is on the wall for their ships just like all their other Trek product.

 

Eaglemoss's new larger scale models we just learned about will put the final nail in the coffin.

 

One thing it would do every toy collector well to think about is the fact that "price point" is to a large extent an exercise in fantasy.  Obviously they need to sell the ship to resellers for more than it cost them to make.  Beyond that, they more or less just make crap up, by observing the market.  If the MSRP to us, from the toy store, is $60, do you think they sold that ship to the toy store for $55?  $50?  No.  Probably lower.  Maybe someone here is a diamond reseller and can tell us the wholesale, otherwise I'd just be guessing.   And if that is enough for them to make money still, what do you think it's actually costing them to make it?  Obviously the answer is, lower still -- and probably much moreso than you'd expect.

 

After all, isn't it obvious they are having all of their toys made at the lowest common denominator of offshore factories?  The quality of their toys is ridiculously low compared to people like NECA and yes, even Mattel, because at least Mattel figures can be easily posed, stand up, and hold onto their paint -- and don't have components that will snap in half if they fall over.  All of these are issues I have discovered in DST product ranging from Minimates to 7" figures and yes, even to ships.

 

When asking, how much should we charge, keeping it above cost is the first thing but then the next thing is simply "how much can we get away with?"  Which all comes down to what we will pay -- as parents, and as collectors.

 

Let's just think about the recent blind bag toy and figure craze.  For small blind minifigures/toys, they've managed to get us to pay $3-5 for something that is often on the level of would have come out of a 50 or 75 cent gumball machine just outside the store -- without even being able to see what we will get.  Why?  Well, this other company did it, and people are buying it, so let's all move up to "current market value" for tchotchkes.

 

Let's look at figures.  For quite some time we've been at around $20 for a 6-7" figure.  It doesn't matter if Playmates made it (think more like their Secret of the Ooze turtles, not the smaller and less articulated basic figures), or DST, or Mattel, or king of the crop NECA (after opening a crapload of toys this year, anyone who doesn't see NECA as the king doesn't know what they're talking about).

 

In fact, DST recently shocked me by starting to offer the "barebones" versions of their select figures 

(they still come with a number of accessories, just not the larger diorama-ish pieces) for $15 at TRU.  You know what that should tell us?  It's corroboration of my allegation above that the price is way higher than you would think.  They needed to get more competitive so they cut out some of their profit (on the select, too, it would seem), and to be able to drop it that far means that profit is (or was) high.  And I'm sure part of why they were able to do it was the cheapest of cheap factories they seem to use.  I'm sure that particular sacrifice in parts & labor quality is in large part responsible for all the back and forth delays of product, too.  Speaking from experience in other industries, it's hard to communicate with even the best outsourcers, and almost impossible with the worst.

 

We're in part to blame for this as the consumer.  And it works both against us, and in our favor.  On the negative, it encourages high prices all the way up to what we are willing to think we should be paying even for crappy product.  On the positive, it helps keep the true stars like NECA continuing to price competitively.  If we collectors paid for true quality, like we should, then we should see each of these company's figures being market selected into graduated pricing but instead we allow ourselves to select it simply by size; thus, they are all $20.

 

So when we talk about how much ship DST is willing to give us at their ship price point, just remember that that ship price point is one we created for ourselves, and DST probably has a lot more cushion built into that final Point-of-Sale MSRP than we realize on first thought.

 

Now I fully expect Zach to show up at some point and try and convince us that no, they are actually running a charity, they barely make anything on the ships, they do it out of the kindness of their hearts.  And woe is us, we are forced to work with our factories to keep the bottom line low so we can keep delivering you product in today's market.  You decide whether that makes any sense to you.



#154 JMW326

JMW326

    If I don't have it, they never made one.

  • Members
  • 4,836 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlotte, NC

Posted 11 October 2016 - 02:47 PM

Well said Whirlygig.

#155 Alteran195

Alteran195

    Their ACTION FIGURES, not dolls!!

  • Members
  • 3,461 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minnesota

Posted 11 October 2016 - 06:37 PM

EM making the bigger ships definitely puts them in more direct competition with DST. While they don't have electronics, they are still a good enough size to make them real nice display pieces. If I had to choose between EM and DST when I was just starting out. I'd probably go with EM.

I'm curious what their prices will be like. I'm guessing they'll be around $50? $10 seems a decent price increase for an inch or two increase in size over the specials.

We'll see how quickly EM can churn out the bigger ships, and how good their quality is.

#156 1701D

1701D

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, United Kingdom

Posted 11 October 2016 - 06:57 PM

Yeah very well said whirligig.

I think as well as what you say, buying trends have certainly changed. The blind bag craze has not relented and I look at Lego as the cause of the craze.

The increase in popularity of the Lego brand and the licenses it holds has also has had a huge impact in what both kids and collectors want. There has been an explosion in construction toy lines from Lego all the way down to Kre-O.

Lego overtook Mattel as the leading toy company and it's no surprise. Action figures and traditional toy lines have become very basic now. Even the Star Wars line is as basic now as it was back in the 80.

The reason being is that Lego is a shared product. Aimed at kids but with a huge huge appeal to older collectors (AFOL's) and parents who share the experience of building a set with their kids.

What has this got to do with DST? Those same buying trends have hit the Star Trek consumer too. Mega Bloks produce construction sets which are great and of good quality and mini figures.

Funko and Titan Merchandise have the vinyl figures covered

Mezco have the action figures sorted, they have also released far more in the space of a year than DST has managed to get done with their single Khan figure which still isn't out...

Eaglemoss are powering along with a far wider selection of ships at affordable prices and look to be expanding their line into bigger ship models which begs the question: if Eaglemoss are now releasing far superior in quality, decent sized ship models for my display or my desk, and product that will be on my desk before Christmas with more coming before DST even get their Reliant shown to the fans then why do I need to wait for DST to get their act together when Eaglemoss are satisfying my needs.

Not everyone will agree, some will still maintain that diamond select's ship line is the definitive ship line but I think more and more of us are now just so fed up with DST that now we have other options, DST is just becoming irrelevant to Star Trek fans.

Going further... I wonder just how long Diamond Select can carry on the way they are without having to shake up their offerings across their entire range. From Marvel to Star Trek and everything in-between, compared to other companies in their market, they are pretty much the weakest out there right now in terms of quality, product selection, product release dates etc...

#157 1701D

1701D

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, United Kingdom

Posted 11 October 2016 - 08:47 PM

I'd also just like to point out that the fact that there are so many companies with Star Trek licenses doing so much product that for me, it just puts me off collecting any of it in any significant way.

So when a company comes out with crappy product or not enough product, I'm even less likely to be interested in that line. For me that has happened to Diamond Select. Too many quality issues, not enough product to keep me hooked and excited by their line.

Right now Eaglemoss are the guys getting me excited by what they've done and what they want to do plus Ben really does engage very well with the fans.

Another company that has me interested is Mega Bloks, I just hope that this is a license that continues into other areas of Trek.

#158 MisterPL

MisterPL

    Yes the Troi figures hair worries me.

  • Members
  • 943 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 October 2016 - 09:15 AM

DST needs to try something different. More so, they need to be willing to try. 



#159 Whirlygig

Whirlygig

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,432 posts

Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:53 AM

I'd also just like to point out that the fact that there are so many companies with Star Trek licenses doing so much product that for me, it just puts me off collecting any of it in any significant way.

 

I also get less interested, the more merchandise there is related to a particular franchise.  Star Wars, for example, is just so impossible to collect all of everything that it makes me want to collect very little.  But I still end up with quite a bit, even limiting myself to 6" Black Series, Titaniums, and Hot Wheels.

 

But for me Trek isn't quite that bad right now.  I mean, Trek stuff is way, way down from its prime during the 90's.  If we had that environment today I would feel as overwhelmed as with Star Wars.  In 2009 I felt like I bought just about everything that came out with the words Star Trek on it and honestly it didn't amount to that much...which is saying a lot since 2009 was probably the height of Trek merchandising since the 90's.

 

The only reason I am embargoing DST Trek at the moment is that they are making choices to produce things I either already have (figures) or things that make very little sense to me and I'm not that interested in (ships).  I'm critical of them on many things, no doubt, and these things all swirl together to create the embargo...but, if they offered some things I actually wanted I would buy them.



#160 1701D

1701D

    Dances with Toys

  • Members
  • 1,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, United Kingdom

Posted 14 October 2016 - 02:36 PM

It'll be interesting to see what happens if or when CBS and Paramount become one company again because I think a lot of this disjointed merchandising for Star Trek is as a result of the split between the two studios.

What I'd like to see happen is for Star Trek to start appealing to younger audiences, inspiring a new and younger generation.

From that springboard Star Trek becomes a vibrant and relevant brand for companies to start merchandising. Out with Diamond and in with Playmates for the kids, building on their 90's legacy - similar to how they've launched their TMNT line has gone and then something different for Collectors to collect so that they don't feel like they're having to start again collecting the same type of product. Perhaps Mega Bloks or Lego, Mezco, NECA...

Just something new, something different and not an oversaturation of the market with the same or similar product from several different companies.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users